(I'm a bit of a Calvin and Hobbes and Far Side fan. They both stopped making new ones when I was a little kid, and didnt appreciate the humor. )
Posted on 02/17/2002 11:35:16 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
Interestingly, my wife is a high school math teacher (she does the hard stuff -- trigs, pre-cals, etc.)
Why do I feel like I'm ALWAYS in a math class?!?
Ward, go back and read my posts with mom (and others, perhaps) and you'll see where I'm coming from.
Incidentally, some choose and others don't because GOD CREATED THEM WITH THE RIGHT OF FREE CHOICE. Before the foundation of the world, God knew how he'd create man.
I would say that Roman 3 is speaking about man's lack of desire to live a life pleasing to God. I plainly accept that there are none who seek after God in a pleasing way.
Are you saying that men can't choose to serve God? Are you saying that a man can not make the decision to obey God?
I'm saying that the natural man does not want to serve God.
I'm saying that the natural man does not want to obey God.
I'm saying that the natural man does not want to do good because it is not in his native wants. (Romans 7)
I'm saying that the natural man does not want to please God. (Romans 8)
I'm saying that the natural man does not even understand what he ought to do because he does not want to understand--it is foolishness to him. (1 Corinthians 2)
When natural Men act by God's PERMISSION, they ONLY PERFORM GOD-OPPOSING ACTIONS. That is all they Want to do, so that is all that they ever Will to do.
Psalm 14:2-3 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one.BTW, what does it mean to be spiritually dead to you? You do believe that man is born spiritually dead, don't you?Isaiah 64:7 And there is no one who calls on Your name, who stirs himself up to take hold of You; For you have hidden Your face from us, and have consumed us because of our iniquities.
(I'm a bit of a Calvin and Hobbes and Far Side fan. They both stopped making new ones when I was a little kid, and didnt appreciate the humor. )
Rude and insulting ad hominem comments like yours are the reason I know your intent originates from your flesh.
The fruit of your comments answers your own question. You don't know enough of me to even suggest or hint that I am not a thinking man.
...not that you would apologize for your insult...
No, I do not believe that man is born spiritually dead. Spiritual death is the result of sin. Romans 5:12 specifically says that our death comes the same way Adam's did (through sin -- ours, Adam did not inherit any sin) and Ezekiel 18 explains it in detail and at length: "The soul who sins will die."
In Romans 7:9, Paul tells how this worked in his own life: "Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. "
Paul says he was once alive apart from the law.
As a result, I made my parenthetical "let alone think on them" comment, and still wonder why you would choose to participate on this thread.
I have no problem apologizing, and I sincerely ask your forgiveness for offending you.
"You don't know enough of me to even suggest or hint that I am in the habit of making ad hominem comments.
...not that you would apologize for your insult...
What is aweful is he didn't even understand the formula of where to put the X's and Y's...He just made up his own question..:>)
My statement about trusting in my own "mortal intellectual reasoning", must be understood in its context, meaning that none of us as mortals will ever fully know God, or His ways (Cf. Job 38ff). With that in mind, I'm careful to not make absolute declarative statements which attempt to limit the abilities or attributes of the One Who is limitless, unless with absolute certaintly, He has made such clear declarations Himself. Regarding the topic of this thread, I believe that caution must be employed and that love is more important than being right. If you read the article that I posted, you'll see that I have been consistent in my approach. This is certainly not a posture of choosing to be ignorant, or of 'not thinking' for I am not ignorant of the Scriptures. I simply choose love over pride and unity over division.
With that in mind...
Take care Jerry and His best to you.
I explained to you that I made my parenthetical comment on thinking based upon your own words. You accused me of making rude ad hominem attacks. It really is quite rude of you to assume the worst about me, and continue to accuse me of a nefarious "card stacking technique". Are you certain that it is not your "pride" that is talking?
Then, please explain to me why I should not regard your belief as Pelagain heresy?
As to your reading of Romans 5:12, explain to me how sin was in the world before the giving of the law. How could a righteous God condemn a man to death for a crime he didn't commit?
I do not believe 'soul' life begins until after birth, when God gives it at birth with the breath of life (Gen.2:7) (there is ofcourse,before that physical life). When an infant dies, he goes to heaven since he is under the blood (Rom.5:18) and hasn't said no to the free gift (Jn.16:9). See 2Sam.12:23. - fortheDeclarationOh, does this quote (found here) from ftd offend you? Is ftd even wrong?
And while you are thinking on these things, please explain to me how a baby can go astray from birth, speaking lies if he is not born with a sin nature?
I'm beginning to see why you don't like Calvinism....
You maintain that God's foreknowledge is merely His precognition. The Calvinist maintains that God's foreknowledge is a planning faculty.
You can't prove your position. It is merely a presupposition which you prefer in view of another presupposition which you hold. (That other presupposition is that man's free will is the sovereign determiner of man's destiny.)
The knowledge of moral law which is now inborn in the Adamic race is NOT mediated by the Spirit.
Which posts? I'd like to read them to see where you are coming from.
What I have read in your anti-Calvinistic posts thus far seems confused to me. It might be helpful if you would let us tell you what the Calvinistic position is and why we believe that it is correct.
(You have been a little too busy telling us that our Calvinistic position is wrong to see that we are actually right.
This is why I have urged you to read my #210. I think you need to realize that your soul has been in revolt against the Truth--and that you ought to weep and believe what Paul is telling you in 1 Corinthians 2.)
I take that as a compliment, thank you. I am not actually interested in debate, and would prefer to loose a debate and learn something than win and remain ingnorant. This is not modesty, the motive is very selfish. I am very interested in ideas, and positively worship the truth.
... I'm trying to determine how much common ground we have between us.
I've been told, even on this thread, that my views are not held by many. Which is quite correct. Nevertheless, we must have something in common. At least we speak the same language.
...Had he not acted providentially, some other outcome would have come about. This meddling affects some for the worse and some for the better. Someone's eternal disposition might even be affected. Again, it doesn't seem fair.
(finally, the question:) Do you agree that God predetermines in these ways, and if so, why is predetermining salvation through election categorically different?
Let's suppose there is no God. How much rationality we are born with is determine by factors preceding our existense, including how dumb or smart our parents are, whether we are born in an Islamic country or Budhist, Shinto, or Christian of some flavor. It doesn't seem fair does it?
Furthermore, the history of the world is determined by an infinite number, or at least and indefinite number of contributing causes that probably no indivdual is capable of changing.
So, if there is no God, things are not much different for the individual in this world. We are born in some circumstance somewhere in some condition, and it is different for everyone. There is still joy and pain and happiness and suffering, good and evil. The only difference is, whithout God, there is no one to blame for the evil, and no one to thank for the good.
Now this is not the answer to your final question, but a response to your statement, "had he not acted providentially, some other outcome would have come about." I do not believe this. I do not mean things would not be different if there were no God, I mean, however things are, that is the only way they can be. The "providence" of God does not work by "putting events into", or "taking events out of" the flow of history (except in the case of miracles, which are extremely rare). I am also not going to presume to know how it does works, but I have the view that God uses every aspect of creation in the precise way it was meant to work. In one sense, everything just goes on, doing what it naturally would do, just as if there were no God, but it is just that working out of natural laws that fulfills exactly God's purpose.
Now for your question:
I do not agree, from what I have just said, that God predetermines things in quite the way you described. So, in the case of man, to whom he has given a rational/volitional nature, which requires man to learn and choose, even to survive, it is that nature which God uses to work out his plan. But this means, God cannot cause man to do anything. Reality determines the scope of choices avialable to any individual. They cannot choose what they are intellectually incapable of choosing or do what is physically impossbile to them. But for every individual, there are always an infinite number of choices they can make within the limits of their capabilities and the environment in which they live.
But doesn't that mean that some people won't be able to do what God requires of them? No, because God only requires what is possible. This is everywhere taught throughout the Bible. Sin is trangression of the law, but where there is no law, there is no transgression. (Rom. 4:15, I John 3:4) Knowledge is necessary for moral responsiblity. If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin. It is, to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. (John 15:22, Jas. 4:17) Opportunity is necessary for moral responsibility. (Gal 6:10) And many more.
So my answer would be, that God determines everything by using the very nature he has given to His creatures to work all things out to His Glory, and that includes allowing man to choose whatever he is capable of choosing, and holding him morally responsible for only that which is possible to him. Nevertheless, men freely choose to do what they know to be wrong, thus deceiving themselves, and separating themselves from God, and this happens universally.
Ask me another time why this happens universally. It has nothing to do with a sinful nature or predestination.
Since I'm not sure exactly what your question meant to get at, I have answered in this somewhat ramling way, so you might have some insight into my general view of things, but not much, I'm afraid.
Hank
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