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Unintelligible Redesign - This is the way creationism ends. Not with a bang, but with a whimper.
Slate ^ | 2/13/2002 | William Saletan

Posted on 02/14/2002 3:30:12 PM PST by jennyp

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To: AndrewC
The quote was taken from a presentation at a meeting. The talk was based on the research published in this paper (pdf).

Here's the context for the snippet you posted:

In terms of a 21st Century view of evolution, the major importance of natural genetic engineering is that this capability removes the process of genome restructuring from the stochastic realm of physical-chemical insults to DNA and replication accidents. Instead, cellular systems for DNA change, place the genetic basis for long-term evolutionary adaptation in the context of cell biology where it is subject to cellular control regimes and their computational capabilities.

In other words, Shapiro is talking about removing particular kinds of mutations from the stochastic realm to that of biochemical processes (much like the action of viruses which cause mutations). Note that does not speak to the evolution of these processes.

201 posted on 02/21/2002 9:29:53 AM PST by Nebullis
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To: AndrewC
No. I just made up those quotes.

You've taken them out of context. My previous post crossed yours and you'll understand what I mean.

202 posted on 02/21/2002 9:31:03 AM PST by Nebullis
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To: Nebullis
You've taken them out of context.

Okay, but as I digest the source for portions of the Aug 2001 presentation, consider the conclusion of that presentation.

A 21ST CENTURY VIEW OF EVOLUTION

        Evolution is the history of organisms that have succeeded in adapting to changing circumstances. Over evolutionary time, this means altering the genome — the long-term information storage organelle of all living cells — to provide the functional information needed to survive and reproduce in new conditions. Those organisms that have the most flexible computational capabilities, in particular those that have the best means of altering information stored in the genome, will have an advantage. Thus, it makes sense for organisms to possess crisis-responsive natural genetic engineering functions, and we should not be surprised to find them ubiquitous in contemporary organisms, all of whom are evolutionary winners. Indeed, it is now difficult to imagine how organisms that depend upon gradual accumulation of stochastic mutations could persist in the evolutionary rat race.

        The last half century has taught us an astonishing amount about how living organisms function at the molecular level, in particular about how they execute cellular computations through molecular interactions and about the systemic, modular, computation-ready organization of the genome. We have come to realize some of the basic design features that govern genome structure. Combining this knowledge with our understanding of how natural genetic engineering operates, it is possible to formulate the outlines of a new 21st Century vision of evolutionary engineering that postulates a more regular principle-based process of change than the gradual random walk of 19th and 20th Century theories.


203 posted on 02/21/2002 9:54:57 AM PST by AndrewC
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To: Nebullis
WOW!!! He starts off with a bang!

By connecting transcriptional regulatory circuits to the action of natural genetic engineering systems, there is a plausible molecular basis for coordinated changes in the genome subject to biologically meaningful feedback.

204 posted on 02/21/2002 10:01:52 AM PST by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
The debate between gradualism and punctualism has raged since Darwin's time. Punctualism is gaining ground, especially as particular mechanisms are elucidated which can explain it. The thread about the Ubx genes is another example of that. Non-random "natural genetic engineering" is an example of a deterministic process in evolution.

But, Shapiro's work or words, even while they provide evidence of a mechanistic basis for rapid adaptive change, don't exactly settle the issue between determinism and non-determinism. Instead, they contribute to seeking the balance between the two that many other researchers have concluded is where evolution and life is situated. Shapiro doesn't work in a vacuum and a large body of literature about transposable elements and their role in genome restructuring address both the random and non-random aspects of their effects.

205 posted on 02/21/2002 10:27:39 AM PST by Nebullis
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To: AndrewC
The ID/Creationist crowd do love him.
206 posted on 02/21/2002 10:29:27 AM PST by Nebullis
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To: Nebullis
But, Shapiro's work or words, even while they provide evidence of a mechanistic basis for rapid adaptive change, don't exactly settle the issue between determinism and non-determinism.

Exactly. That is why I state "if this analysis is correct". But it appears that the momentum is in the favor of the engineering cell and if it can explain any evolution it potentially explains all evolution (since Darwinians put it all in one basket) with the exception of its own genesis.

207 posted on 02/21/2002 10:45:12 AM PST by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
...if it can explain any evolution it potentially explains all evolution ...

Hardly. It's a contribution to a complex web of causes.

208 posted on 02/21/2002 12:17:58 PM PST by Nebullis
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To: Nebullis
Hardly. It's a contribution to a complex web of causes

Not according to Darwinians, which is the point of Shapiro's statements.

209 posted on 02/21/2002 1:24:47 PM PST by AndrewC
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