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Why Is Libertarianism Wrong?
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/libertarian.html ^

Posted on 02/01/2002 10:21:47 AM PST by Exnihilo

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To: Exnihilo
No, I don't. I selected it for the author's points on Libertarianism. Those points have yet to be refuted, except for someone to say "he's a commie!". That is not an argument

Welcome to the world of Libertarianism, where they will state with a straight face that they are "conservatives" and in the next breath will state what a great "constitutional" organization the ACLU is.

81 posted on 02/01/2002 11:04:01 AM PST by Dane
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To: Exnihilo
Those points have yet to be refuted, except for someone to say "he's a commie!". That is not an argument.

Commies have no standing to make arguments against freedom for the same reason al-Qaeda apologists have no standing to make arguments against Israel.

82 posted on 02/01/2002 11:04:35 AM PST by steve-b
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To: steve-b
Steve, it ought to be easy. He makes specific statements about Libertarian philosophy, using Libertarian sources! All you would need to do is show how he is wrong about either his sources, or his conclusions! It shouldn't be hard. He even goes so far as to summarize a number of his points on a nice little colored table. I'm still waiting. Stop running around shouting commie and just refute him.
83 posted on 02/01/2002 11:04:39 AM PST by Exnihilo
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To: steve-b
Steve, his statements about Libertarianism don't have anything to do with Communism! You're trying to make a connection that just isn't there.
84 posted on 02/01/2002 11:05:26 AM PST by Exnihilo
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To: Exnihilo
I posted it for his points on Libertarianism, not his personal opinions on other matters.

His personal opinions on other matters lead him to his views on Libertarianism. If he and/or you are to be taken seriously, you cannot incorporate solid socialism into a viewpoint and then try to separate it when it suits him/you.

85 posted on 02/01/2002 11:05:31 AM PST by riley1992
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To: WindMinstrel
yeah, I found it illuminating that you chose a socialist's arguements against libertarianism. That's much like selecting a harlot's assault on chastity.

Love it! :-)

86 posted on 02/01/2002 11:06:07 AM PST by jlogajan
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To: Exnihilo
Libertarians do have their use in this country. We need a party that's pretty far to that extreme in order to have any chance at all of pulling the Republicrat party away from big government and more curtailment of our rights.
87 posted on 02/01/2002 11:06:54 AM PST by Quila
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To: Exnihilo
Libertarians are the ideological predecessors for the Post-Indurstrial Age/ Post Nation-State political movements.

Conservatives are the managers of the welfare state and the late stages prior to the death of the nation state in the Pre-Information Age time period.

Conservatives would be wise to learn to work with us as our thinkers are the only chance they have to preserve their families and culture if not their welfare nation-state they have been taught to love.

88 posted on 02/01/2002 11:06:57 AM PST by JohnGalt
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To: Exnihilo
Maria Cantwell and Harry Reid love those libertarians. The Democratic Senate loves those libertarians.
89 posted on 02/01/2002 11:07:35 AM PST by Ben Ficklin
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To: Exnihilo
His idea have nothing to do with communism? How about this one:

Image: moral autonomy of the individual
Reality: libertarians demand that the individual accept the outcome of market forces

As opposed to what? Redistribution of wealth or government manipulation of markets to make them more "fair"?

90 posted on 02/01/2002 11:07:38 AM PST by NittanyLion
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To: riley1992
He doesn't incorporate socialism into his conclusions about Libertarians! That's just the point! He may at other places make aside comments that are socialist, but his flat out assertions about Libertarian philosophy have nothing whatever to do with socialism. In fact, he puts his comments in a nice little table contrasting the Libertarian image with the Libertarian reality. Now, why is he wrong? Just refute him! C'mon guys.. Don't be scared.
91 posted on 02/01/2002 11:07:40 AM PST by Exnihilo
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To: Exnihilo
If you are a libertarian, then there is no point in reading any further

As you wish.

92 posted on 02/01/2002 11:08:54 AM PST by Eagle Eye
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To: NittanyLion
Why the black/white dichotomy? Either we have an unrestrained Libertarian free market economy or we have centrally planed socialitic economy? I don't understand your reasoning here.
93 posted on 02/01/2002 11:08:54 AM PST by Exnihilo
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To: Ben Ficklin
Maria Cantwell and Harry Reid love those libertarians. The Democratic Senate loves those libertarians.

Perhaps if you fielded candidates that actually stood for small government and constitutional restraint, instead of whining about how someone stole your votes (as if you were entitled to them), you wouldn't have lost.

94 posted on 02/01/2002 11:10:07 AM PST by OWK
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To: JohnGalt
Conservatives would be wise to learn to work with us as our thinkers are the only chance they have to preserve their families and culture

What a joke. Libertarian hyperspasticindividualism will destroy "culture".
95 posted on 02/01/2002 11:10:09 AM PST by Exnihilo
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To: Exnihilo
Despite the claimed horror at 'collectivism', libertarians share the general liberal preference for collective forms of decision-making - above all, the market.

This statement is outright idiotic. To call market forces--which consists millions upon millions of individual decisions mad by millions and millions of separate indivduals--collectivist is out right insanity. This guy has absolutely no regard for the proper definition of words---he's worse than Bill Clinton!!!

96 posted on 02/01/2002 11:10:19 AM PST by The Green Goblin
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To: Exnihilo
An overly long treatise supporting authoritarianism, but let's pick a paragraph and parse, shall we...
collectivism: Despite the claimed horror at 'collectivism', libertarians share the general liberal preference for collective forms of decision-making - above all, the market. This is often legitimised by a claimed universal necessity, to "balance" or "weigh" preferences. This is an ancient metaphor, and very popular since Newton, but the 'necessity' is not self-evident. No can show why preferences should be balanced, or weighed: to want them weighed or balanced is a preference in itself. It is, by definition, a collectivist preference, since at least two people must participate. In practice, free-market decisions are always collective: supply of one product, by one maker, to one customer is not a free market. A free market in the libertarian sense needs at least three parties: with only one buyer and one seller, there is no competition. In such a free market, with multiple parties and competition, all parties influence the final state of affairs. No individual can decide that outcome alone. While claiming to reject autocracy, libertarianism has in fact abandoned autonomy.
This is mostly jiberish. Calling the free-market "collectivism" doesn't make it so. The market is a vast collection of free individuals. They each, as individuals, decide the value of any given commodity. And each individual then acts upon his judgement and decides whether or not to participate in a transaction. The buyer buys at a given price or the seller sells at that price each according to his own will. If one doesn't like the price, then he is free to walk away from the transaction. In an authoritarian society, be it leftist or rightist, those commodity values are set by the State. Also, the decision to participate in the sale is made by the State. What you may buy or sell, where you may buy or sell it, and what price you will pay or get are all set by the State. That is collectivism. And it is still collectivism even if one cloaks it in a veneer of "traditional values". Changing the definition of a word may work for Humpty Dumpty or Bill Clinton, but it doesn't work in reality.
97 posted on 02/01/2002 11:12:44 AM PST by Redcloak
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To: Exnihilo
Why the black/white dichotomy? Either we have an unrestrained Libertarian free market economy or we have centrally planed socialitic economy? I don't understand your reasoning here.

Because rights either exist, or they do not.

If our rights are brokered by the state in a semi-socialistic-centrally-planned economy, then they are not recognized by the state as rights, but priveleges.

Why is this hard to understand?

98 posted on 02/01/2002 11:12:45 AM PST by OWK
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To: Dane
I know you don't like libertarians, but please tell me you don't agree with the author. This whole article is nothing but anti-capitalist bolshie hog manure.
99 posted on 02/01/2002 11:12:51 AM PST by Dakmar
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To: Exnihilo
Look, buddy, this commie crap has been refuted thousands of times over in the last half-century.

If you have failed to do any real research, that is your loss; don't expect ME, for instance, to refute this totalitarian vomit.

You have replied to none of my posts so far on any thread.

Don't bother now, Mr. Nothing; you are a disruptor, plain and simple.

I will hunt you down on every thread I can.

100 posted on 02/01/2002 11:12:54 AM PST by headsonpikes
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