Posted on 02/01/2002 5:26:40 AM PST by CCWoody
Why does grace work on one occassion and not another ? I know we have discussed this before..but there was never an answer.
You would say that man "just decides " to refuse Gods grace and the gospel. But when one knows hell is the ultimate destination for one that refuses,ya gotta wonder how they could refuse. There must be some difference in the understanding if nothing else.
Does the one who says yes have better "spiritual hearing" do they understand better?
Come on, Woody, you know better than that. Free Republic is a conservative forum. If I believed as you say, I'd be over at Democratic Underground.
But to use your analogy with appropriate adjustments.
Free choice means that everybody in America has the right to decide if they want a car or not.
But if you have the ultimate choice. Gods hands are tied,He must wait on you to make your decision before He can decide how to complete HIS plan ( Or is that YOUR plan ).
I am bright enough to know that every man in scripture that met with God fell on his face..he did not ask God to wait while he decided.See thats what sinful man does in the presence of a Holy God.
Speak Lord your servent is listening!(Samual)
I am a man of unclean lips (Isaiah)
What would you have me do?(Paul) etc. etc. etc.
God allows man to do as he will. We all have free will. The question to be asked is why we will what we do.
Perhaps since I am a project manager, I can see how both things can happen at the same time. You know what someone is going to do, you know what you want to accomplish, so you use the ones who are willing to be used, and let the rest go - sometimes taking advantage of their poor choices.
So we are back to the issue - if God controls me, then He is responsible for my sin. No way around that.
Jesus invited those who desire salvation to put their lives aside & follow him. This suggests we have the free will to do so.
I found I had to plumb the very depths of my own sense of inadequacy before I would even consider giving over control of my life to God. Being a 'work in progress' I still struggle with this every day. This is why I find the Calvinist assertion re: pride of non-Calvinists so ironic.
Let's forget about the two men and speak about the one man, ME.
Did I have a better spiritual hearing the time I said "yes" as opposed to the time I said "no."
That seems an obvious "yes" as I think BACK on my experience with the Lord. If for no other reason than that the results of saying "yes" were far better than those of saying "no."
Here's an interesting scripture for you from the book of Acts. The setting is in the home of Cornelius, the Centurion. The event occurs BEFORE Cornelius has accepted Christ.
Acts 10 3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, "Cornelius!" 4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. "What is it, Lord?" he asked. The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter.
I think they're powerful indicators that what WE THINK OF as "works righteousness" (which the Bible says is impossible) is not what the bible means when most of us say, "works righteousness."
God was impressed by Cornelius' virtuous life. The text says so. The text also says that the angel came to Cornelius BECAUSE of Cornelius' gifts to the poor.
God was impressed by it. He was impressed BEFORE Cornelius became a Christian. This WAS ALREADY the Christian era.
No, the Calvinist affirms man's responsibility. If you refrain from calling me a hyper-Calvinist then I will refrain from calling your beliefs rabid foaming at the mouth Arminian heresy. This way, we can countinue to discuss in a reasonable, although strained, manner.
The issue is, does God control everything or does He chose to allow us to exercise our will? If He controls everything, then He is responsible for my sin, not me. If He allows us to exercise free will, then why does anyone claim He allows it for everything but the one thing that counts?
I have maintained that God used Pharaoh's own free will to harden his heart. I maintain that man has absolute free will. You simply refuse to believe the scripture that say what man does with his free will; only of evil continually. Until God changes a man's want to only sin and to do evil into God pleasing actions, even the God pleasing action of repenting and believing, then man will only use his free will to sin and do evil.
The issue is does man thwart God's will in any way? If you think so, then you believe that man is more powerful than God in whatever way man can thwart God's will.
The believer has free will, to choose (to continue?) to serve God, but the above examples of conversion experiences show each man completely and totally crumpling before God. Thinking particularly of Paul's conversion on the Demascus Road.
Gotta run, Analytical Chem lab is coming soon. Fun stuff :-) .
Friend, since you have read Max Lucado I would assume that you have some interest in and/or knowledge of the truth. There is no need to be abusive. I definitely lean Calvinistic but we should accept as brothers and sisters those that do not. Don't let an issue like this decide Christian fellowship.
No you keep bring it back to that not me :>)
How is a sovereign God allowing you to do exactly what you will to do any different than a powerless god allowing man to do what he wants to do?
Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
Psalms 51:5, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me;"
1 John 1:10, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
Romans 3:10, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;"
Isaiah 64:6, "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."
Now the bottom line is we all are born wearing the mark of Adam.All of us sin because we look like our father Adam..and we continue to look just like him in our wants and desires untill we are born again . In our sin none of us seek after God!
Woody, so we got Hyper-Cal's and Rabid- Arm's? LOL. (And Foaming Mouths...)
We need something for "Calminians." (I'm afraid to suggest something for mormons and catholics 'cause I can't say "bash-worthy" things about them. (Let's see, halfway between the "hyp" (hip) and the arm is the belly, the love handles (for those like me....I'm sure you don't have any), and other fat deposits. Let's call them Squishy....the Squishy Calmins
Do you really think man can do anything to impress God? All our righteouness is as filthy rags....What can a sinful man do that God thinks is worthy of respect?
I believe the story of Cornelius expresses the "reform " position on God's grace
Acts 10 3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, "Cornelius!"4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. "What is it, Lord?" he asked. The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God.
5 Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter.
I think we need to consider the times here. Cornelius was faithful to the revelation of God that he had. I am no expert on such things ,but it seems to me that his experience is like that of most of God's elect. There was a moment of God's grace to which the man Corneilus responded as I did and as most of us do when overcome by that grace.. "What do you want from me Lord" . The dead had been raised..the blind see and the deaf hear. (again similar to Samuel,Isaiah, Paul ,etc)
This man sought first to Hear from God.
As for him " impressing God" Well I find it impossible to believe that any man..no matter how self righteous can impress God. Does God know our hearts and our acts yes..It seems to me that noting the "good works" and pious activity of Cornelius the words here remind us that God often spoke of the prayers of His people raising up to him. (incense being a type of that) We see some of that in Hebrews where it is taken from sacrifices and applied to prayers. Scripture says of burnt sacrifices that the smoke and smell of them goes up into God's nostrils, and so do our prayers, as a sweet smelling sacrifice which the Lord takes great pleasure in.It seems to me there is application there
We are exercising our "willfulness" when we say we have "free will."
But it is a false concept which flourished during the 17th century.
In response to the hard truths of the Reformation (and encouraged by Rome), "Pietist movements" sprung up throughout Europe which said everyone's interpretation of the Bible was correct if "it felt good." It discouraged orthodoxy in favor of a "personal understanding of God."
This concept negated most organized theology (Catholicism as well as Calvinism) and refused to follow the governing structure of the Reformers. Instead, it maintained that each church and each individual had its own governing power.
Needless to say, Rome loved this movement as it splintered the Reformation into dozens of sects.
Two hundred years later, we are left with autonomous churches who offer the "feel good" theology of everybody can be saved; we create our own evil; we're all part of God; we can thwart God's plan by accepting Him or denying Him; we have the power to surprise God; etc.
And taken to the extreme, these concepts are responsible for Mormonism, which says we are each a God in our own right and that we will one day rule our own planet; and Scientology, which says the same thing, only gets more laughs.
Read John. Read Romans. Read Calvin. God is absolute.
So you don't think God's foreknowledge is powerful enough to both grant us free will ahead of time and see after that decision what the results of it will be?
If God grants free will before time begins, before the creation of humanity, can God look through history all the way to AFTER the great white throne judgement and see the group that ends up believing in Him?
Can He? Is He Able? Is His Foreknowledge powerful enough?
Amen. May I add Ephesians to your list? And a contemporary John Piper?
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