The Cross vs. the Swastika

Boundless ^ | 1/26/02 | Matt Kaufman

[Paul Ross]

First, an apology to whomever started the thread, and to anyone genuinely interested in pursuing that topic. Sorry for going so far afield.

Apology accepted! (although I don't regard you as the main transgressor...)

[Paul Ross]

First, an apology to whomever started the thread, and to anyone genuinely interested in pursuing that topic. Sorry for going so far afield.

Apology accepted! (although I don't regard you as the main transgressor...)

[Gladwin]

It is amazing that this thread is still going on.

[bookie]

We have to take this dude zapping thing on faith?

Okay. These are very important issues here. You said in your post that we have evidence in the fossil record. That is not supported by honest evolutionists.

Evolution says that everything started out as chaos, right? And then over millions of years these highly detailed organisms(such as whales)develped. Isn't the major theory of evolution that things went from chaos and became more organized? All I can say is that before you get that powerful fin on the whale, you're going to get a badly deformed leg that is fit for nothing.And that won't survive in survival of the fittest, will it? What good is a deformed leg?

Have you heard of things like the gene pool? There are only so many genes in a species.

Evolution of humans? Our DNA is very complex! Our DNA can only be made using these certain 20 proteins. Ok. What's the problem? Those proteins can only be made by DNA!

As far as all that debate about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics,the point is not that energy being used up refutes evolution, it is that the total entropy of the universe increases! Evolution says the opposite. Evolutionists say that things get more orderly.

Lets get serious here. Many people believe that this is a debate that looks like this: faith v. reason, evolution v. creationism, or Evolutionism v. Christianity.

I'd like to show you another way to look at it:

made by chance v. designed
life from non-life v. life from life
natural selection v. reproduction after kinds
Designer v. no Designer

This in not just a silly debate by silly irrational Christians. This has serious implications for you(and everyone). For example, if you have evolved from monkeys and are in a transitional stage, and you will continue to evolve into who knows what, what does that make you?

It means you have no worth.

After all, what is the worth of a freak of nature, who just evolved form animals and will continue to evolve? I'm not saying you personally are a freak, I'm just trying to show where our conclutions lead us.

[bookie]

We have to take this dude zapping thing on faith?

Okay. These are very important issues here. You said in your post that we have evidence in the fossil record. That is not supported by honest evolutionists.

Evolution says that everything started out as chaos, right? And then over millions of years these highly detailed organisms(such as whales)develped. Isn't the major theory of evolution that things went from chaos and became more organized? All I can say is that before you get that powerful fin on the whale, you're going to get a badly deformed leg that is fit for nothing.And that won't survive in survival of the fittest, will it? What good is a deformed leg?

Have you heard of things like the gene pool? There are only so many genes in a species.

Evolution of humans? Our DNA is very complex! Our DNA can only be made using these certain 20 proteins. Ok. What's the problem? Those proteins can only be made by DNA!

As far as all that debate about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics,the point is not that energy being used up refutes evolution, it is that the total entropy of the universe increases! Evolution says the opposite. Evolutionists say that things get more orderly.

Lets get serious here. Many people believe that this is a debate that looks like this: faith v. reason, evolution v. creationism, or Evolutionism v. Christianity.

I'd like to show you another way to look at it:

made by chance v. designed
life from non-life v. life from life
natural selection v. reproduction after kinds
Designer v. no Designer

This in not just a silly debate by silly irrational Christians. This has serious implications for you(and everyone). For example, if you have evolved from monkeys and are in a transitional stage, and you will continue to evolve into who knows what, what does that make you?

It means you have no worth.

After all, what is the worth of a freak of nature, who just evolved form animals and will continue to evolve? I'm not saying you personally are a freak, I'm just trying to show where our conclutions lead us.

[bookie]

From the general tone of your post, I conclude you are a Christian who believes in evolution. I assume you believe in the Bible, all except for that interesting fable about creation and Adam in the Garden of Eden and how he fell into sin along with Eve his wife.

How can you believe in God, then, who says ALL His Bible is the truth?

If the story about creation is false, then the story about Adam is false, then the story about sin is false. So why do we need Jesus then? He had nothing to save us from. You can't believe in Jesus and not believe in creation.

[Junior]

Evolution says that everything started out as chaos, right?

Herein you are arguing with a creationist strawman. Evolution has nothing to do with chaos. It simply states that organisms change to adapt to their environments and that these little changes add up over the generations into big changes. We know the changes occur. That makes evolution a fact. How they occur is the theory part of it. For example, random mutations in the genome lead to new traits. Environmental pressures (not random) select for the most favorable of those new traits. This is the theory of natural selection (there are also theories dealing with sexual selection). These small incremental changes have, over the past 3.5 billion years, given rise to all the diversity of life we see around us.

[Junior]

How can you believe in God, then, who says ALL His Bible is the truth?

First off, it is man who claims the Bible is the word of God; using the Bible's claim to be the word of God as proof it is the word of God is circular reasoning. Secondly, God uses parables and allegories in the rest of the Bible, so why couldn't Genesis be such? After all, there is no physical evidence backing up the Genesis account; indeed the physical evidence refutes the account in Genesis. From this we can conclude: 1) Genesis is false and should not be included in the Bible or 2) Genesis is an allegory and should not be taken literally but figuratively.

[bookie]

To Ol' Sparky:

Don't resort to name calling, please. It lowers our postion. We have open minds, which is why we believe in creation. We have scientific proof. I couldn't believe something that goes against reason. Creation is the only explanation of the world I've found that doesn't. So.

I know all you evolutionists will laugh, but I can't help that.

[bookie]

So where did the life come from in the first place?

[bookie]

We don't have to take only the Bible's word for it.

The Bible was written by...

40 different people

living in different places(desert, palaces, small towns, large cities)

centuries apart(times of war, times of peace)

in different moods(feeling of great joy, great sorrow, moments of fear,times of insecurity)

from different continents(Africa, Europe)

in three different languages(Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic)

about controversial topics(the nature of God, moral issues, politecal alliances, religious cerimonies)

Would you expect a book like that to agree with itself at all? Of course not!

But the Bible does. Why not believe the best answer? Someon other than man had to have written this.

[Junior]

That's a question for the biogenics folks. Did it arrive here aboard a comet or asteroid? Did it arise from the evolution of ever more complicated self-replicating molecules (of which there are many)? Or did God zap the first organism into existence billions of years ago? There is very little evidence extent from the period on Earth when the first life came into being, and researchers are reduced to replicating early conditions in the laboratory to test out any number of hypotheses. In other words, your guess is as good as mine.

[bookie]

Yes, changes occur. Within a species.

All the evolutionist scientists who have tried to produce mutations have only succeeded in producing horribly deformed creatures that die.

[bookie]

What about the gene pool?

How can little changes add up into big changes over time with the gene pool in the way? There is a limit to how much an organism can change.

You didn't answer what I said about the whale fin.

[Junior]

Would you expect a book like that to agree with itself at all? Of course not!

It doesn't agree with itself at all. The two Genesis accounts have different orders of creation. The NT says the Kingdom of God would be at hand before all those present had passed away.

Hell, if it were the unadulterated Word of God, why did the Protestants hack a bunch of books out of it?

[bookie]

You didn't answer what I said about Jesus.

[Junior]

The gene pool isn't "in the way" (how can you think it is?). The gene pool is the field in which the changes take place. As for your whale fin claim, we have a whole range of semi-aquatic and aquatic mammals to show the change from leg to fin (otter, seal, dolphin) -- and none of them seem to have any problems.

[Junior]

Man didn't need to have fallen to be a sinner.

[bookie]

Okay, I have answers I'm itching to post but there are about 10 rabbit trails out there.

So lets just answer the first basic question. Where did life come from?

Just start by looking around you at the world.

You have no outside sources.
Don't look at evolutionary evidence and

don't look at creation evidence.

What do you see?

Where did life come from?

Not what happened after life got here.

Where did life come from?

Try to come to a conclusion ignoring the fact that you really do believe that evolution is the truth.

Where did life come from?

[bookie]

I've gotten my answers from biogenics folks. And if my guess is as good as yours, why are you so sure that the idea that God created the universe is silly?