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Chinese Eyes Territorial Claim Of Outer Space
spacedaily.com ^ | 21 Jan 02 | Wei Long

Posted on 01/20/2002 7:59:42 PM PST by RightWhale

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To: Prodigal Son
I think it should be financially feasible to fund an unmanned mission to the moon, using 1960s technology, to deposit my "radio intensity monitors" on everyone's plot

You might find a land surveyor willing to discuss this. Markers have to be placed in the ground, the corners of the lot marked permanently, and the survey recorded at the appropriate land records office [an operation of the government.]

Just to survey your lot assumes you can find it. What is your legal description? The actual text. Post it here and I will be pleased to tell you if the parcel can be mapped and surveyed based on that legal description.

61 posted on 01/21/2002 9:20:49 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: RightWhale
Oh they recognize private property alright. That is all property is private because it all belongs to the state which means it then belongs to bunch of bueracrats and oligarchs.
62 posted on 01/21/2002 9:22:29 AM PST by borghead
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To: RightWhale
I doubt there will ever be a manned base on the moon. Impossible to maintain and support. Mars could be made earth-like but the atmospherical transformation would take centuries.
63 posted on 01/21/2002 9:23:18 AM PST by Truthsayer20
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To: Truthsayer20
I doubt there will ever be a manned base on the moon.

NASA could have been operating a permanently manned base on the moon for the past 30 years with a budget no larger than what it has now. The US military has complete plans for a manned moon base and has had them since the 50s.

Obviously it is not a trivial undertaking, but sooner or later it will be done.

64 posted on 01/21/2002 9:35:39 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: JoeEveryman
Joe, the physical action is with respect to the claimed territory. It's the old saw about possession being 9/10th of the law--and Hope does not have physical possession of the site in question. If he were to journey to the moon and put down surveying stakes, then he'd have a much more solid claim.
65 posted on 01/21/2002 9:41:26 AM PST by Poohbah
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To: borghead
Oh they recognize private property alright

There is an entity known as public property. This is in contrast to private property.

For example, there are public lands in America, and public access easements.

Most people seem to be confused as to what public lands means. They think they are a member of the public and therefore they can go as a private citizen onto public lands. They are wrong. The members of the public do not represent the public. The public is in fact the government. The public would be the elected officials, the governor, the president, the congress, the community group of selectmen, the county commission, the state legislature, the stewards of the land. A private citizen may put a claim to a well-defined piece of public lands only if the public entity permits it.

What is the situation in other countries? In England there is a monarchy. In Russia there was communism, and in China as well. What about Brazil? Each system treats land ownership differently and the various countries recognize claims of countries in different ways depending how they recognize the various contries.

The Taliban were not recognized at all except by Pakistan. So any land claims filed with the Taliban were not recognized outside of the Taliban.

China has been recognized as a legitimate form of government, but such recognition is limited. Any territorial claims of China to outer space land and resources might or might not be recognized. This recognition is up to each governmental entity. America might not recognize China's claim to any part of the moon. These issues are usually resolved by treaty or war.

66 posted on 01/21/2002 9:47:15 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: Poohbah;RightWhale
What if an astronaut or taikonaut were to set surveying stakes on the moon and be officially recognized by all of the spacefairing powers as legit. Then what would happen if that person signed over his property rights to their government? Would it then be the governments?
67 posted on 01/21/2002 9:56:49 AM PST by Brett66
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To: Brett66
Then what would happen if that person signed over his property rights to their government? Would it then be the governments?

Transfer of private property to the government is a contract and requires both parties to agree. If the present owner, a private citizen, signs the deed, and if the government agency also signs the deed, then there is an offer and an acceptance, and it is a done deal. This does not require a different government to recognize either the private claim or the government ownership; an example is Taiwan, where China has made the ownership claim, but the claim is not recognized by America or any other major power.

If North Korea recognizes China's claim to Taiwan, and if China moves to occupy their [in Chinna's own opinion] land, then North Korea would have to support such a move, at least in words.

A similar situation was Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. Very few major countries recognized Iraq's claim to Kuwait. What can happen if a claim is not recognized? The Gulf War was the result in that case.

If you were to mark a parcel on the moon, white posts at the corners of a 5 acre mining claim, and if you then transferred ownership to America, that would imply that America had recognized your claim, and that America had accepted private ownership of real estate in space.

68 posted on 01/21/2002 10:15:57 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: Brett66
Nope. The Outer Space Treaty takes precedence. It would be completely ignored.
69 posted on 01/21/2002 10:19:15 AM PST by Poohbah
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Comment #70 Removed by Moderator

To: JoeEveryman
The problem is that you must demonstrate REAL control over the Lunar surface in order for those claims to be valid.

Build a rocket, boost to the Moon, put down your surveying stakes, and shoot the interlopers. That's how property claims have ALWAYS been enforced on the frontiers.

71 posted on 01/21/2002 11:04:07 AM PST by Poohbah
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To: Poohbah;RightWhale
Thanks for your responses. I have a feeling when the Chi-coms set foot upon the moon they're going to try to apply some "special" interpretation to existing space treaties that will give them ownership of all or part of the moon. We're going to have an international incident and it will be up to us to make them back down and renegotiate all of these dunder-headed space treaties. I'll bet money on the Chi-com's treachery.
72 posted on 01/21/2002 11:11:39 AM PST by Brett66
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To: RightWhale
The actual text. Post it here and I will be pleased to tell you if the parcel can be mapped and surveyed based on that legal description.

...blah, blah... this document represents the transfer of ownership of one (1) acre on the Lighted Lunar Surface.

This property has been lawfully purchased from Dennis Hope, The Head Cheese, who by nature of the Declaration of Ownership filed with the UN on the 22nd Nov, 1980, was the recognized owner of said property.

The deed is for the property listed below:

Area F-4, Quadrant Charlie- Lot number 048/0462
This property is located 3 squares south and 4 squares east of the extreme Northwest corner of the recognized Lunar chart... Goes on to state where the Lunar Embassy is located and that the deed is transferable at my discretion. Comes with a cheesy little map of the lit surface with an "x" marking the approximate spot of my land. It's kind of in the middle of Oceanus Procellarum from the look of it. (Hey! waterfront property)

To tell you the truth I haven't given it any more thought since I bought it. I think I paid 10 pounds sterling for it. It was sort of laugh but crazier things have happened in court (OJ got off) and it might be that Mr Hope is actually the Head Cheese after all. If not, he thought up a good get rich easy ploy and my hat's off to him ;-)

73 posted on 01/21/2002 2:21:55 PM PST by Prodigal Son
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To: space
indexing
74 posted on 01/21/2002 4:07:21 PM PST by Brett66
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To: Brett66
They're going to set foot on the moon in about 10 years and their going to claim it or at least part of it.

A chinese person once told me this interesting story:

After Apollo 11 landed on the moon, and Armstrong stepped out onto the surface to make his famous statement, the Chinese government claimed that there was a brief, intentional communications blackout (between the moon and earth). During this blackout, Armstrong purportedly read a legal statement claiming the moon as the property of the US government.

If I could spell psychology, could we agree to call this a case of "projection".

75 posted on 01/21/2002 4:59:41 PM PST by e_engineer
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To: Prodigal Son
Area F-4, Quadrant Charlie- Lot number 048/0462
This property is located 3 squares south and 4 squares east of the extreme Northwest corner of the recognized Lunar chart

Okay. Right away we know there is a plat of a subdivision. Such plat must be recorded at the public land office. Before it is recorded the land must be surveyed and the plat be approved by the municipal platting authority after appropriate public hearing.

If the subdivision was performed without survey or without public hearing, it is illegal, or extralegal, and the buyer should be aware that his interest may be rendered null and void without further notice.

The deed or title for the divided lot is equivalent to a quitclaim deed, the weakest form of deed. A quitclaim deed merely transfers the seller's interest in the property. It does not require that the seller have any interest in the property; whatever the seller's interest was, is now yours.

BTW, the platting authority would require utility easements, roads, and paid up taxes before they would approve the survey plat of subdivision.

76 posted on 01/21/2002 6:22:40 PM PST by RightWhale
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To: ChaseR
Yeah thanks for this one. Makes me even wonder now if we ever DID land on the moon after all.
77 posted on 01/21/2002 7:27:31 PM PST by goldilucky
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