Posted on 01/20/2002 5:02:48 PM PST by CCWoody
No. Not even close. I don't "say." I only say what the Word of God says.
Direct your attention to my post #377. Please scripturally show my errors, not some wave-of-the-hand simplistic "if you say so."
Pull out your Word and concordance and show me where I'm wrong. Please. Do it. Let's put it to rest, once and for all. Shall we?
NO - NOT IF HE SEES YOU THROUGH JESUS!
Well, then we disagree on what the point is. The issue is, as I see it, why are some saved and not others? You say God just decides, I say that God wants all, has paid the price for all, but it is man that must make the final choice.
Now, the question of how one views the will is based on how one first sees that issue.
The affirmation of the Freedom of Man's Will is, in a precise and nuanced way, one of the things which set John Calvin's theology apart from that of Martin "Bondage of the Will" Luther.
I did not think there was much difference between them, but the conclusion was the same man is free but still in bondage
Calvin maintains that the Will of Man is Free; it is his spirit (including the emotional constitution of his Wants and desires) which is Fallen. Because all of fallen Man's native Wants are evil, he freely wills to do nothing but evil, for that is all he Wants to do. If given the opportunity to worship God or reject God, the Fallen Natural Man will employ his free, uninhibited, unconstrained Will to reject God, every time and without exception, for he wants to reject God and he is going to freely Will to do whatsoever he Wants to do.
you mentioned Luther's view, how was his and Calvins different.
You maintain that man is totally dead with no will. You speak lies.
Who said this last statement, I do not think it was me-was it?
We maintain that the Natural Man's spirit is totally dead and hostile to God, and therefore he freely employs his very real and active Free Will to reject God, all the time, every time.
Yes, I understand what you mean (despite attacks by Doc that I do not)
Thus, his freedom amounts to what? Nothing. No, it amounts to a very great power for Evil.
The 'nothing' is in relationshp to the ultimate question why are some chosen and some not
For that is all that the Natural Man wants to do with his Free Will: evil.
I will grant you that, but we all are evil so why are some saved and some others not
You bring in freedom after sucking all the meaning out of it (like you do to the word 'grace'). In your system only God is free. Everything good or bad is traced back to His directive will. On the contrary. We maintain that the Free Will of the fallen, Natural Man is real, active, robust, and uninhibited. Man enjoys the uninhibited Freedom of Action to do whatsoever he wants to do, without any internal or external compulsion or constraint; and because all of his natural, fallen Wants are God-hating, he freely Wills to always reject God, all the time, every time.
OK, I will grant you that we are all evil, now, why are some saved and other not, when all are evil?
Or do you believe that the Fallen Man, in and of himself, naturally possesses God-Pleasing Wants?
I believe what it says in Acts 17:27. (ofcourse, Woody will tell me that it really doesn't mean that!)
To use the word Freedom the way you do is the same way the Nazi's and Communists did, it is a nonword. On the contrary. The Nazis and Communists forced slave-laborers to build weapons of war for their masters to use in murder and conquest.
I am not talking about what they did but how they corrupted the language! (You know, like Orwell, peace is war, love is hate etc etc)
The Calvinist says that natural, Fallen Man is not forced to Sin, never forced to do evil, never compelled to reject God. On the contrary, Fallen Man is absolutely Free; and so he freely wills to Sin, to do Evil, to reject God all the time, every time, for that is all he wants to do and he has the uninhibited Free Will to do whatsoever he Wants, without compulsdion.
He is born with a Sin nature that is given to him at birth. That nature is a blessing because by being placed under Adam's sin, he can be blessed by the grace of the second Adam (Rom 5). But again, I will grant you this, that in the sight of God we are sinners
Or do you believe that the Fallen Man, in and of himself, naturally possesses God-Pleasing Wants?
All that and this is where you end? The issue is not 'naturally' since it is God who can make man understand the Gospel and draw him to it (Jn.12:32-yea, two wills-right!). Total Depravity is the root of your system but not the root of the Bible. The ultimate questions are why did God create in the first place, why did He allow evil into His Universe, Why does He allow many of His creatures to go the Lake of Fire? Now, since we know God is Love (1Jn.4:8) Calvinism therefore answers nothing, since it starts with man (as Totally depraved)
A Biblical system has to reconcile God's love with His sovereignty, not set one against the other. Piling adjectives on top of one another showing how wicked man is does nothing to answer that question. Moreover, even Calvinist theologians acknowledge that man is not as wicked as he could be (through various restraints, conscience, gov't, the Holy Spirit).
Finally, I think I know where that quote you quoted to George Bush came from. Do you know a guy named Uriel1975? I think he might have posted that once.
Even so, come Lord Jesus --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Faith is a nonmeritous act, not a righteous act. It results in a righteous act, justification. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.
Faith is only receiving the free gift. God honors faith since it glorifies him (Heb.11) (I will leave out the prayer to honor your request when we exchange posts)
There is a big difference in permitting something to happen and making something to happen. If God did not provide all that was necessary to be saved you might have a point, but He did!
Thus, God must allow us to make decisions (having given us the ability to do so) if those decisions are going to mean anything to Him. What good does it do for someone to choose for God if it is Him doing the choosing. What pleasure does He derive from that.
God permitted evil into the Universe because He had no other choice if He wanted His creatures to have the freedom to say yes or no. That is what His Love wanted.
God's Love did all for us that could be done on the Cross, dealing with God's own Just demands against us, the decision to take the free gift must fall on us if it is going to mean anything to God. God has a directive will, in which He actively controls everything, and a permissive will, where other wills are allowed to operate freely, this results in evil and sin, but God's grace has overcome them.
Even so, come Lord Jesus
My genetic makeup, the laws of society, economic limitations, laws of 'nature' (God). No man is ever born totally free and no one who denies Total Depravity but accepts depravity (Original sin) ever states that.
Even so, come Lord Jesus
True, but we still are in his similitude (likness)(James.3:9)
Even so, come Lord Jesus
How can a fallen and unregenerate man do anything that would glorify God?
10: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12: They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
He can't on his own. Yet, God has made Himself known to man (Rom.1:19), He has made it possible for man to seek him (Acts 17:27), God desires all men to be saved (1Tim.2:4,2Pet.3:9), has paid the price of sin for all men (1Jn.2:2, 1Tim.4:10) and will shine His light in them to show them the truth (2Cor.4:6).
Their response to that truth is their responsibilty, and choice (that God always knew). It is an act of faith (acceptance) of the free gift offered to them in the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ. If one believes and accepts the offer, no merit is given to him, but the one who is doing the offering, who bought and paid for the gift (Rom.4:4-5,1Pet.1:18:19)
Repeating a prayer is not vain repetition. That refers to the saying the same words over and over again while you are praying, not finishing something with the same prayer.
Have you?
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
"Did you see the post that stated that the gift was the 'grace' and not the 'faith'-very impressive!"
There would be no reason for Paul to explain that God's grace did not proceed from ourselves. That goes without saying.
It is obvious therefore that the gift he is referring to in this verse is faith, which some would incorrectly assume comes from within ourselves.
Some choose to respond to the light(Jn.3:21) and others reject it (Jn.3:19-20)
I have also posted the details of my conversion experience on this forum in the past as well. "Connect" is only exhibiting that spirit of judgmentalism that has characterized this thread. "By their fruits ye shall know them."
My what a broad brush, you all!
Of course, I guess that in addition to the Calvinists on this thread you would also have to include:
William Carey, the father of the modern missionary movement.
Adonirim Judson, the first American missionary.
John Bunyan, author of Pilgrim's Progress.
Jonathan Edwards, the finest American theologian.
J.L. Dagg, the first president of the Southern Baptist Convention.
C. H. Spurgeon, the "Prince of Preachers".
B.H. Carroll, the founder of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.
Al Mohler, the current President of Southern Seminary.
And an untold multitude of Godly men and women.
You continue to sin in your judgementalism. Repent.
OHHH no Sueanne you do not get to change the rules after the discussion starts..you said (and I cut and paste from your original post) I believe You were preaching your "faith "message
Hmmmm? If we're made in God's image and likeness, then how come we have hope and He doesn't!! How could He create hope in us if He didn't have any hope to give us??
Then I wrote to you
"Man is no longer made in God's image"
And you responded
What?? Where do you get that from?? Man is still the same image as God originally created it to be. Man still looks like man did when Adam was created.
Now you want to change the rules to the post conversion by saying that was not what you meant. I think your meaning was plain..it is what the devil would like us to believe ..that we are not as bad as we really are..he whispers in our ear " you are like god".I will just say this Sueanne..God is the Father to those that are His..but not the unregenerate world..He was not my Father until I was saved ,in spite of the feel good church message, and even now I am a sinner saved by grace, and I certainly do not always "look " like God to the world...
Certain concepts such as agapa and prooridzw existed before the NT was written. Did you ever think of that? You may be surprised to know that Koine was not invented by the NT writers. Therefore words and concepts had meaning before they were found in the NT. Could it be that the original readers of the Koine understood based on their knowledge of the language? Since Paul doesn't define prooridzw he must assume the readers understood what it meant, right? Tell me, what did prooridzw mean before the NT was written?
Not if you could have prevented it ftD..sometimes a decision not to act is a causation of something..as an example..Let us say you live in an isolated area ,you smell smoke..you look and there is a small fire in the kitchen..you put on your coat and walk out..your house burns to the ground.
Now you did not start the fire..but you "let it be" to do its destruction..in reality YOU burned down that house by your refusal to use the fire extinguisher to put it out..you allowed that fire to do as it will always do.
You predestines that ftD...sometimes failure to act IS a predestination
In God's case His decision to allow someone to bring himself to ruination is a predestining act.
God could have given every man the "measure" of grace they needed to hear the gospel and respond to it..but He did not (as we see around us every day).But the very fact HE is God every thing He does is predestination
Why? Do you also doubt the accuracy of the account of the Sermon on the Mount, even assuming that it is a summation rather than a word-for-word transcription? On what basis should we living in this century doubt the accuracy of the attributions in the generationally contemporaneous writings of people who were there at the time, who claimed to be eyewitnesses, and who went to their death sticking to their account of the empty tomb? I'm not talking at this point about believing the claims themselves, but merely about the general accuracy of the accounts of the claims. If he didn't make the claims why did the Jewish religious leaders want to kill him? Were there not nutcases at the time who ran around claiming to be the Messiah?
Have you ever doubted the authenticity of the sayings of Homer, (not Simpson) Socrates, or Buddha?
Jesus taught that not everyone was a son of God in the unique sense that he was. He told the Pharisees, for example, that they were of their father the devil. How can a good teacher teach people that there is a supernatural devil, and that they are his offspring, if in fact there is no such bean?
Cordially,
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