For Whom Did Christ Die?

They came to us the way the Bible did, through true and living apostles and prophets.

If this were true, they could not then, contradict the previously complete Word, now could they? Tell me this: Why are the bodies of believers in the graves where we lay them? Why haven't they gone up to heaven like Christ's? After all, God is the God of the living and not of the dead. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

How do you explain the warning in the book of Revelation, wherein Christ says, and Christ is the One giving the Revelation, isn't He, not to add to words of this book or all the plagues will be added to you? As a believer, don't you have nightmares of what's going to eventually happen to all of you?

I still think that you read the completed Word backwards through Mormon tinted glasses, and you want all of us to agree with your view. Mormonism is the same as gnosticism in that it is new revelation and man-centered, not God centered. Like the charismatics you want a new experience, and you have a Jesus that the true apostles did not preach. When your texts clearly conflict with what God said and revealed, and then closed the books, you have error, for God is holy and cannot lie. You still haven't told me why it's so important to prove that God has a fleshly body. You bring God down to man's level when you preach this and that is a sin. It's Humanism, true Greek philosophy and you are the one viewing the True Word through Greek glasses.

Even though the spirits come to us as angels of light, we are to ignore them. At least that's what scripture says. The Book of Hebrews: When Christ finished His work here on earth (and what exactly were His dying words?)He ascended to His rightful place at the right hand of God. There was no more reason, according to scripture, for Him to incarnate. The Apostles were to teach the disciples and the disciples are to fulfill the Great Commission, to every land.

The stick of Joseph: Already passed in the New Testament, by the Messiah Jesus Christ, to the woman at the well, Samaria, Ephraim. It's not the Indians of North America who are Ephraim. Ephraim's well -- given to him by Jacob. Study the completed scripture, learn and understand. The elect are in all nations-- that's a tenet of the scripture, and I myself believe that some of the Indians of NA are conceivably of lost tribes, but the genetics right now, point to Asians and Indonesians. Still who knows? Ship travel was extensive. I believe that every true believer is elect and a member of the lost tribes, spiritually, possible even physically. Scripture doesn't contradict it. Ephraim got his stick long before they came here. Study and learn.

Does it depend on finding evidence in Jericho that walls fell down flat, or finding the pebble that killed Goliath, or a sword once used by David, or the fig tree that withered, or the Holy Grail, the cup used at the Last Supper?

If the book said there was a land of brigadoon far to the east of OZ, it'd make me wonder if no one ever found evidence of them anyplace at all.

If the book said there was a city of Bethlehem close by Jerusalem, and I didn't find them there, that'd make me wonder, too.

Guess what....they're there.

Now what are some city names in the Book of Mormon?

Your #1761: If this were true, they could not then, contradict the previously complete Word, now could they? ... When your texts clearly conflict with what God said and revealed, and then closed the books, you have error, for God is holy and cannot lie.

They don't contradict. However, since you disagree, produce some specific examples, and we will consider them one at a time. As far as closing the books, see the next post.

You continue: Tell me this: Why are the bodies of believers in the graves where we lay them? Why haven't they gone up to heaven like Christ's? After all, God is the God of the living and not of the dead. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

They are absent from the body now, but their resurrection will come when the Lord wills it:

1 Corinthians 15:21-23
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Your last sentence is not quite a direct quote:

2 Corinthians 5:6-10
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Paul does not enjoy being away from the presence of God. He thus implies that he lived with God before he was born, and now is away. He looks forward to the time when he will die, leave his body behind until his resurrection, and go to be with Jesus. For now, he knows he has his mission to fulfill until his work on earth is done.

Think about the way you worded that last sentence. Sinners in hell are absent from the body, yet are not present with the Lord.

Your #1761: How do you explain the warning in the book of Revelation, wherein Christ says, and Christ is the One giving the Revelation, isn't He, not to add to words of this book or all the plagues will be added to you? As a believer, don't you have nightmares of what's going to eventually happen to all of you?

No, l$mp, you are not thinking about how the Bible came to be, nor the authority God gives to apostles and prophets to write Scripture, nor the fact that Christ said the same thing in Deuteronomy, referring to the Law of Moses, as He said in the Book of Revelation, referring to the Book of Revelation.

Here is the relevant portion of an earlier post of mine:

Stay close to those whom God sends to you -- apostles and prophets -- and if you believe that there are none such on the earth today, ask God to send some, with a commitment on your part that you will give diligent heed to their teachings.
When God sends them, they of course have the authority to write Scripture, which you can study along with the Scripture you already have. Don't be in the position of those in Isaiah's time who said the Lord cannot sent a prophet to warn them of their impending captivity, or to testify of the coming Christ.
(But Deuteronomy 4:2 says the canon of Scripture was closed in the time of Moses, you can't add or take away anything!)
Don't be like those in Malachi's time who said the Lord cannot send a prophet to tell us of the coming of Elijah, and the Second Coming of the Messiah. Don't be like the Jews of 40 AD who said there had not been a prophet for 400 years and so the time was forever past for God to send a prophet, who would not receive Peter and Paul as prophets because they taught the Law of Moses was fulfilled and that animal sacrifice should cease because the Great and Last Sacrifice had been made.

Deuteronomy 4:2
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

See also an excellent analysis (an excerpt from a published book) in this post.

Your #1761: I still think that you read the completed Word backwards through Mormon tinted glasses

You are entitled to your opinion, but I do not agree.

Mormonism is the same as gnosticism in that it is ... man-centered, not God centered.

Not true.

you have a Jesus that the true apostles did not preach

Not true.

You still haven't told me why it's so important to prove that God has a fleshly body.

Yes, I have, abundantly. It is important to have a correct understanding of the nature of God, so we know who we are, so we know why we are here, so we understand what God wants us to be doing, so we understand our relationship to Him, so we understand the importance of marriage and children and family, and so forth.

You bring God down to man's level when you preach this and that is a sin. It's Humanism, true Greek philosophy and you are the one viewing the True Word through Greek glasses.

Not true. You are arguing with the New Testament here. You are not going to win that argument.

My experience with many posters at FR is that when they run out of other things to say, they just toss out accusations they don't bother to back up. Easy and quick for you.

This conversation is degenerating already on your side. Let's be more careful and thoughtful, and back up your points with Bible quotes, or else there isn't much point in continuing.

I have made many very good and sound points, and others can read your views and mine and make up their own minds.

You are arguing with the New Testament here. You are not going to win that argument.

I invite all lurkers and others to consider this revealing statement of yours. It is over, White Mountain and you have lost. If not the New Testament, then what? You are telling us that you have something better than the theology of Jesus Christ? Something better than eyewitness testimony of the Messiah? Have you even heard of Mark, of the L and M documents, of proto-Luke, of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Can your questionable witnesses even hope to be on a level with them? Your faith is empty and your limited understanding of Scripture shows that you are not of the elect after all, and I had such hope for you. Go ahead and have the last word, but Jesus has left the building. You want to pick and choose the gospel, throwing out all that does not agree with the manmade books of Mormon. You want to throw out the New Testament. Now I've heard everything. I don't think the Moonies would have you. I received an email that you would have me banned for entering into a dialogue with you and that other Christians are afraid of you as you are in tight with JR and contribute heavily to him. I guess we'll see. I do so love the smell of bloody beheadings in the morning, don't you?

Your #1762: Even though the spirits come to us as angels of light, we are to ignore them. At least that's what scripture says. The Book of Hebrews: When Christ finished His work here on earth (and what exactly were His dying words?)He ascended to His rightful place at the right hand of God. There was no more reason, according to scripture, for Him to incarnate.

This is really sloppy. I suggest you repost it, quoting the verses you refer to, and then try to show that those verses support your conclusions that anything that comes as an angel of light should be ignored, or is of the devil -- Should Mary have ignored the angel Gabriel? -- and that there is no reason after His ascension for Him to keep His physical body.

What was the purpose in His physical resurrection then? To deceive the apostles? Surely not! Are you not indeed steeped in pagan Greek thinking, which holds that a body, spirit or physical, is limiting and undesirable?

You continue: The stick of Joseph: Already passed in the New Testament, by the Messiah Jesus Christ, to the woman at the well, Samaria, Ephraim. It's not the Indians of North America who are Ephraim. Ephraim's well -- given to him by Jacob. Study the completed scripture, learn and understand.

Study and learn, guy! Learn and understand! Show me where Jesus passed the stick of Joseph to the woman at the well. Ephraim was the younger son of Joseph, and Joseph guided him toward Jacob's left hand for their blessing, but Jacob crossed his arms and put his right hand on Ephraim's head, and told Joseph he knew what he was doing (Genesis 48:8-20). Joseph was given a double portion in Israel, so we do not read of the tribe of Joseph, but of the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh.

In about 720 BC, Ephraim's descendants were carried away captive into Assyria, and could have migrated to many places before and after. As you say, ship travel was extensive. By now, Ephraim's descendants could well be scattered worldwide.

Your #1770:

What? This has to be the most nonsensical post I have ever seen. Your accusations are wild and senseless. Are you losing your mind? Is it possible to have a conversation with someone who accuses so groundlessly, blindly and wildly?

I want to throw out the New Testament? I said you were trying to argue against the plain teachings of the New Testament, and I recommend that you avoid doing that, for the New Testament is the Word of God.

As for that email, it is bogus, and damages the credibility of the person who sent it to you.

I ask (rhetorically), why are so many Calvinists wild attackers and accusers? It does not speak well for them.

Thanks for giving me the last word. This conversation has disintegrated into total, unbelievable silliness.

Dear White Mountain, I wonder myself why so many Christians have fled these kind of discussions, but the truth is, well you know what the truth is. Christians have a habit of disappearing around here -- at least the bible believing ones do. Now the rest are intimidated. So prove yourself to us, and next time we meet up, prepare to discuss the Old and New Testament and the theology of Jesus Christ with us without resorting to the abuse button when you can't defend your position. After all, are you White Mountain, or are you Mount Etna. The New Testament is clear as is the Old, as to who Ephraim was and is. We need no new revelation from white salamanders to tell us anything more. So long.

Perhaps the sender of the mail was in error-- but over the last months threads have been pulled and people banned for theological discussions. I did receive a mail, which I laughed at to the sender. Maybe he is innocent and so let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he is. The Catholic threads are the worst, aren't they. I don't even know WM and have never talked to him except now and I only did so over his Greek comment. The mail did give me pause though, but I continued since I care less if I'm banned or not, for if one is banned in Christ's name, it is a badge of honor. The rest of you should never be afraid to preach the gospel, not ever.

Thanks for the ping LMP!

Since you dragged my here kicking and sreaming, I'll give a quick reply. (c;

I glanced at this thread a while ago, but have not read through it completely, because I kind of suspected where it was headed.

My view of such matters is to remain in the center of Biblical tension. I have been accused of being a liberal interpreter of the Word for such a posture, but this is actually very far from the truth.

The Bible teaches both the free will of man and the fact of God choosing His elect. With that in mind, I need to simply accept His Word as the end of the matter. However, there have always been men who desire to hold on to one side while dismissing the other side.

The Soveriegn God is outside our time and space, for He created our time and space, yet we too often try to place Him inside this time and space in trying to understand Him. The lessons of Job and the rebuke he heard in the closing chapters of his story reminds us that we will never know all the ways of the LORD, for they are indeed unsearchable. So let us not personify the Soveriegn and limit His abilities through our rather tiny understanding of Him.

Is it possible that man has the personal responsibility to choose God for salvation and at the same time also possible that only God chooses those who will be saved?
Yes indeed...for the Bible tells us so.

Most importantly, God loves the whole world and desires that none should perish. To proclaim anything less is to make God out to be something other than a loving and just God, full of mercy and grace.

Jesus died for the whole world, to reconcile all of the creation to the Father.

Want to know if you are one of those whom God has chosen to be saved?

Turn your heart and your life over to Jesus, with full trust in His promises. Believe in and follow Him and you shall be saved.
...and then will know that God chose you from the foundation of the creation of the world!

(c:

an excellent resource for further reading on this perspective

Your #1774: If you continue to refuse to answer the following, it would be the case in any debating society for you to be declared the loser: Let's try this one more time....2 Questions --

What is this? Had you challenged me to a debate? Did you propose a question for us to debate? Did I accept?

The two questions in your post are about classifying the Moonies as a cult and locating Book of Mormon cities. Where such questions usually lead, in my experience, is "you guys are a cult" and "the Book of Mormon must be a fake".

When people want to debate me the implied question is some version of "Resolved: your faith is bogus", and people often add "and you guys are a cult, and you are going to hell unless you believe our interpretation of the Bible". "Cult" is just a meaningless attack word now. Everyone is accused by someone else at FR of being in a cult.

I would insist that the question be worded positively:

Resolved: that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is The Restored Church of Jesus Christ, led by true and living apostles and prophets who labor under the Savior's direction, with authority from Him to preach the Gospel and administer the ordinances thereof.

I would also insist that such a question is not subject to debate.

If you want to know whether God has restored His Church to the earth in these latter days, you need to ask of God, study the Book of Mormon and pray about it, do the things you already know you should be doing, live the light you have. You need to obtain a witness from Him Who is the Only One Whose Opinion Really Matters.

You don't find this out by way of debate. Nor do you convince Arafat with any archaeological evidence which may turn up that God's Holy Temple used to be where the Al Aqsa Mosque now stands. He will just say it doesn't prove anything. Only the witness of the Holy Spirit will do.

As I have said a number of times before, I am not interested in apologetics, nor am I interested in debate, although perhaps I do get coaxed into some of both sometimes.

I am interested in speaking out about the misbehavior of aggressive posters who seek to dominate the minds of others. As a result, people attack my faith, and I respond.

So I am in question/answer mode, not debate mode. You may claim I have lost a hundred times, if you wish, but that doesn't make it true.

If you have honest questions, where you are looking for information, not to try to prove that my faith is bogus, ask away.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.