For Whom Did Christ Die? - Calvinism

The Spurgeon Archives ^ | Delivered on Lord's-Day Morning, September 6th, 1874 | C.H. Spurgeon

[4Godsoloved..Hegave]

It is not our belief that was predestined, but our place in Christ once we believed, our blessings as believers that are predestined.

Show me from scripture your statement. :-) I am not from MO but have visited there quite a few times.

[Jorge]

"Now, if it is God who draws men to him and it is God who hardens hearts, then you have just affirmed the Calvinist position of Absolute Predestination and added to it. Which is it, did you save yourself or did God draw you to Him?"

Outstanding catch! God chose Jacob, yet rejected Esau. In fact, Esau sought repentance with tears, yet could not find it. Jacob was a conniving little backstabber yet the promise of the Saviour came through him!

If God both draws and hardens, then He is truly the author of our faith.

Praise be to His Name. Amen.

Oh...so the moral of the story is we should not "seek repentance with tears" but be "conniving little backstabbers" if we want to find favor with God and have Him save us.

Indeed these are some of distorted interpretations of scriptures Calvinism can lead to.

It's not enough that He died for our sins and freely offers us salvation.....
We can simply sit back and remain in our selfish sinful ways and not accept Christ..and conclude that it is because God has not taken the initiative and "drawn us to Him".

And if we go to Hell....well there was nothing we could do about it anyway....God just didn't want us.
Incredible.

The mindset Calvinism leads to is so contrary to the Gospel it's astounding.

By the way...the passage says "Esau sought repentance with tears"..it doesn't say he actually repented...or was genuinely sorry for anything he did. He was probably sorry for the consquences.
Let's not forget that God knows what's in people's hearts and not judge the Jacob and Esau account by outward appearances.

[RaceBannon]

ow is it you heard and they didn't Race? It sure wasn't your merit was it? What was it?

YES, they are unsaved, they have not the spirit of God, they are unbelievers. The next problem comes when our flesh tells us to believe that with which we are most comfortable, and when something else comes along, we reject it out of hand. Calvinism never sat well with me, specificially pre-destination. It makes God very cruel, to knowingly refuse to save others and choose others.

[Doctor Doom]

Call this a humble and ignorant reading of an atheistic doubter, but all this "you're going to hell, he's going to hell, you must accept thisor that to get into heaven" seems silly to me given this:

Matthew 12:50
"For whosesoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother."

[CCWoody]

Sorry, not going to play word games with you. Don't bother flagging or pinging me again.

Sorry, but it is a simple question: Either God is Omniscient or He is not; simple!

If you do not want to answer the question because it is too hard for you to understand, then don't. I posted this thread and I'll post to whomever I want. If them apples are too sour for you then get off the thread.

[the_doc]

I forgot to mention something which I have noticed about your link (which I visited a long time ago, at your urging).

The scholarship compiled on that site represents Arminian and Amyrauldian fellows who do not care to understand the issues and do not care to be honest about the exegetical problems.

You really do need to look at my #73 and notice what the problems are for your position.

[Hank Kerchief]

Are you a Universalist and/or are you denying Original Sin?

I am not a Universalist. There is nothing original about the sin that Calvinists call "original sin." The sin of Adam was at least the third sin committed on this planet. If Adam's sin is what caused the race to be sinful, why was Eve's sin excused, since it preceded Adam's?

My position is, Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned..., in exactly the same way Adam did, by choice, and by rejecting the the truth God has revealed to them.

Hank

[RedBloodedAmerican]

If you do not want to answer the question because it is too hard for you to understand, then don't. I posted this thread and I'll post to whomever I want. If them apples are too sour for you then get off the thread.

Ahhh...ya gotta love that self-righteous Christian appeal!! you go boy! ciao.

[Sueann]

"unpalatable"

Why?? I don't understand why you think what I said was unpalatable.

God did not create us to be robots. When He created Adam, I have always personally believed He already knew what Adam would do; even though God did ask Adam - what have you done, this is just what all parents do when they ask their children what they have done, already knowing what the child has done.

We are not robots, we have been given free will - which means God decided it was going to be our choice to NOT CHOOSE HIM! He wanted us to love Him by our own free will - not because He required it, and not just because He loved us.

But ... He loved us so much He planned for our salvation - from being eternally separated from Him. He did it for ALL HUMANITY - however, not all will choose to take advantage of His Gift of eternal life. He wants all of us to choose Him, but He already knows some will not.

[fortheDeclaration]

Ephesians 2:8-9 is not complicated. It was one of the first passages that I memorized as a new believer. I always understood it to mean that salvation was God’s gracious and free gift, and that faith was how we received this gift. It was not until I began reading certain theologians that I became aware of the other interpretation. May God help us not to complicate and corrupt the simplicity of the gospel message, a message so straightforward and simple that even a child can understand it.

Eph.2:8 is not referring to the faith being given, but the grace (see verse 5)

Even so, come Lord Jesus

[RnMomof7]

Race why would anyone reject that offer..why do some hear and others not?

Sometime ago my Pastor and I were talking..he rejects God's foreknowlege..I asked him how he could reject what is so plainly in scripture. He said that to believe in God's absolute foreknowledge = predestination. I rejected that then..but spent alot of time thinking on that conversation. I realized he was right. If God foreknows all events..He knows who is saved and who is lost..if He fails to change the series of events or give more grace to a "rejecter" He has predestined that man to hell by His inaction.

Race if you decided to jump out a window tonight and to kill yourself..then 1/2 way down realized you didn't want to fall.......there is nothing you could do..you no longer have a choice..

I believe the old time Calvinists on the thread will tell you that we do have free will....we do choose. The difference is once you have met God and experienced His Amazing Grace you want to choose HIM it is a free choice. I desire none but Him..

[the_doc]

The mindset Calvinism leads to is so contrary to the Gospel it's astounding.

Inasmuch as you are not a Calvinist, you are in not in a very good position to trash the devotional theology of Calvin, Knox, Bunyan, Owen, Manton, Goodwin, Whitefield, Edwards, Carey, Ryle, Spurgeon, Schafer, Lloyd-Jones, or Piper. And that's just the short list of thoroughgoing Calvinists.

Jorge, I would recommend that you reserve judgment in the matter until you understand Calvinism. You're not there yet.

[CCWoody]

Remember though, the CALVINIST believes that only those who are PRE-Destined will come. The Bible believer believes that only those who believe will come!

As a Calvinist Bible believer, this is my position: only those who believe will come!

You again state the Calvinist position beautifully.

Calvinists believe that they are chosen and others are deliberately NOT chosen.

No, Calvinist believe that the elected saints are chosen and that all others are left in their God hating mess. But, hey, 2 out of 3 so far ain't bad.

For God to create someone for the sole purpose of rejecting them in Hell, that is not a Loving God, so, even if God did know men would reject Him, He still had to offer them the salvation in Christ as the rest of the world in order to be consistent with the LOVE offered to those who believe.

Back to my simple little question: Did God know or did God not know who would reject Him before He made them?

[RnMomof7]

God did not create us to be robots. When He created Adam, I have always personally believed He already knew what Adam would do; even though God did ask Adam - what have you done, this is just what all parents do when they ask their children what they have done, already knowing what the child has done.

So then God predestined the fall right?

[the_doc]

As long as you're not inclined to be serious, why don't you grapple with my #73? It shows that the issues really are pretty serious--something which CCWoody does respect.

[A.J.Armitage]

Your concern seems to be making sure you had something to do with salvation. Why is the idea that you didn't, that it was all God's work and is all to God's glory, such a threat?

[fortheDeclaration]

And, oh, dear friends, you that are not saved, take care that you receive this message. Believe it. Go to God with this on your tongue—"Lord save me, for Christ died for the ungodly, and I am of them." Fling yourself right on to this as a man commits himself to his lifebelt amid the surging billows. "But I do not feel," says one. Trust not your feelings if you do; but with no

Note the 'Arminian' appeal to all (Rom.10:13)

Even so, come Lord Jesus

[fortheDeclaration]

If you are going to maintain that Christ died for every single man, then you need to show evidence of "Universal Salvation" in the Bible. I can easily reconcile the Timothy verse you are referring to with the rest of scripture

No, it only makes all men savable, stop putting your Calvinistic presuppositions into the mix. As for'reconciling' the verse from Timothy, please do.

Even so, come Lord Jesus