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Catholics, Jews Unite To Attack Scholar's Latest, Goldhagen Stirring Ire With Article on Pius XII
FORWARD ^ | JANUARY 18, 2002 | MARC PERELMAN

Posted on 01/17/2002 10:36:20 PM PST by FreeSpeechConservative

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To: Either/Or
Poor Sammy. He ran with a bad crowd.
81 posted on 01/18/2002 1:12:39 PM PST by Romulus
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To: Zviadist
I am but a simple country lass....
82 posted on 01/18/2002 1:15:03 PM PST by LaBelleDameSansMerci
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To: diotima
I agree. I read his book on Hitler and it was excellent. I haven't followed this latest controversy so I cannot speak to it.

It was excellent.

I'd be interested to hear what issues people have with his work on Hitler.

So would I.

We already know what Norman Finkelstein thinks about Hitler. Not so bad, in retrospect. Made the trains run on time at least.

83 posted on 01/18/2002 1:18:54 PM PST by veronica
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To: veronica
"...some 'Conservatives' here who are Liberal/Marxists"

Wasn't that you on another thread quoting FDR?
84 posted on 01/18/2002 1:23:44 PM PST by constitutiongirl
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To: Zviadist
Strange that Hochhuth's "Der Stellvertreter" hasn't popped up on this thread. Fascinating, isn't it, that the most fanatical haters of Popery have, as their one true law of gravity, the the complaint that the Bishop of Rome didn't haul the chestnuts of the World out of the fires that the world so gleefully set.....
85 posted on 01/18/2002 1:24:22 PM PST by LaBelleDameSansMerci
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To: constitutiongirl
Wasn't that you on another thread quoting FDR?

FDR is a Marxist now? I did not quote FDR. I pointed out that he considered the America Firsters to be traitors, as did many on the other side of the aisle.

86 posted on 01/18/2002 1:31:49 PM PST by veronica
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To: veronica
You said 'Liberal/Marxist'. Does a Liberal have to be a Marxist? Are all Marxists Liberals? FDR is the Dem's god of nationalisation. What do you call one who believes in wealth redistribution...a paragon of capitalism?
87 posted on 01/18/2002 1:54:20 PM PST by constitutiongirl
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To: veronica; zviadist
I have read Finkelstein's book The Holocaust Industry. To say that he denies the Holocaust seems to me a grotesque distortion of his position. He does criticize the ways in which the concept of "the Holocaust" has been used, but the whole work presupposes that what is called the "Holocaust" really took place. This is clear from the first page of the book. A footnote says: "In this text, Nazi holocaust signals the actual historical event, The Holocaust its ideological representation." And the text on that page says: "In the pages that follow, I will argue that 'the Holocaust' is an ideological representation of the Nazi holocaust. Like most ideologies, it bears a connection, if tenuous, with reality." So Finkelstein is obviously critical of how the term "the Holocaust" has been used, but he equally obviously does not deny that what he calls "the Nazi holocaust" occurred. "Holocaust denier", as the term is used, is understood to mean someone who denies the fact that the Holocaust occurred, or at least someone who minimizes it. That is simply not an accurate description of Finkelstein.

Personally, I found his book quite moving. Finkelstein is obviously quite deeply affected by his parents' suffering, and is trying to be loyal to them in reacting to that suffering in what he regards as an ethical way.

As for Goldhagen, I think his latest screed unmasks him as an academic operator. His unbalanced thesis in his book -- making German nationalism the moral equivalent of Nazism, and average Germans the moral equivalent of Nazis -- was basically more false than true, but it was open to the explanation that Goldhagen was just doing his best to legitimize the state of Israel. It may have been bad history, but it could be understood as springing from basically creditable motives. His current attack on Catholicism, however, can do no good to Israel, and, as Andrew Sullivan observes, has the same problem of unbalance as his book: Goldhagen not only asserts, with some truth, that Catholicism helped to cause Nazism, but he makes Catholicism basically the moral equivalent of Nazism. That thesis is more false than true, it can only embitter Jewish-Christian relations, and, by weakening one of the chief Christian churches, it will weaken morality in the West and serve to empower the left.

Goldhagen is much more of an enemy to Western civilization than the basically honest Finkelstein.

88 posted on 01/18/2002 1:56:53 PM PST by aristeides
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To: veronica
Blast away at Finkelstein and Shahak and that ilk, Ma'am, and more power to you. Take Chomsky while you're at it. They do a lot of harm because Gentiles can't imagine that Jews could be anti-Semites and thus think they should be taken seriously.
89 posted on 01/18/2002 2:39:50 PM PST by Southern Federalist
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To: aristeides
Finkelstein is a Jewish Neo-Nazi. May he soon find himself in the same class as David Irving.

Disgraced, broke, miserable.

90 posted on 01/18/2002 2:42:02 PM PST by veronica
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To: veronica
You've certainly demonstrated how you hate Finkelstein. But you haven't explained why it's honest to call him a Holocaust-denier.
91 posted on 01/18/2002 3:19:07 PM PST by aristeides
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To: veronica
David Irving is pretty clearly intellectually dishonest. I don't applaud the situation in which he finds himself, but I have to agree that in a way he deserves it. But I am mystified why you should want a similar fate for Norman Finkelstein, who, as I said, seems to me to be basically honest.
92 posted on 01/18/2002 3:23:29 PM PST by aristeides
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To: veronica
Schadenfreude may be a human weakness which those of us who are not saints cannot avoid being guilty of. But you seem to me to wallow in it.
93 posted on 01/18/2002 4:12:21 PM PST by aristeides
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To: aristeides ; veronica
New York Times Book Review-http://www.nytimes.com/books/00/08/06/reviews/000806.06bartovt.html:
August 6, 2000
A Tale of Two Holocausts
The first one had victims, Norman G. Finkelstein says; the second has opportunists.
By OMER BARTOV

THE HOLOCAUST INDUSTRY
Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering.
By Norman G. Finkelstein.
150 pp. New York:
Verso. $23.

Norman G. Finkelstein first gained a national reputation with his essay, ''Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's 'Crazy' Thesis,'' included in the book he wrote with Ruth Bettina Birn, ''A Nation on Trial.'' Much of the essay was a brilliant dissection of Goldhagen's book, ''Hitler's Willing Executioners.'' Its last section, however, revealed Finkelstein undergoing a bizarre metamorphosis, in which he employed the same dubious rhetoric and faulty logic he had identified in Goldhagen's work in order to propound his own, even ''crazier,'' thesis on the dark forces lurking, to his mind, behind his adversary's success.

Now Finkelstein is back, with a vengeance, a lone ranger with a holy mission -- to unmask an evil Judeo-Zionist conspiracy. The main argument in ''The Holocaust Industry'' is based on a simple distinction between two phenomena: the Nazi Holocaust and ''The Holocaust,'' which he defines as ''an ideological representation of the Nazi holocaust.'' The author has little interest in the former, though he readily acknowledges that it happened, since both his parents survived its horrors and since some of the few historians he respects, notably Raul Hilberg, have written on it.

But in one of those strange inversions that characterize his book, Finkelstein speaks of the historical event with the same kind of awe, and demands the same sort of silent incomprehension, that he ascribes to his main foe, Elie Wiesel. In order ''to truly learn from the Nazi holocaust,'' he asserts, ''its physical dimension must be reduced and its moral dimension expanded.'' Whatever that might mean, it comes as no surprise that his views about the origins, nature and implications of the genocide of the Jews are but a series of vague, undocumented and contradictory assertions. Thus, for instance, in one place he writes that the ''historical evidence for a murderous gentile impulse is nil,'' and rejects the notion that there might have been an ''abandonment of the Jews'' by the United States government. But in another place he charges that the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum ''mutes the Christian background to European anti-Semitism'' and ''downplays the discriminatory U.S. immigration quotas before the war,'' and then goes on to cite approvingly David S. Wyman's book, ''The Abandonment of the Jews.''

But what really interests Finkelstein is ''The Holocaust.'' The gist of his argument is simple: Had the Jews and the Zionists not had the Holocaust already, they would have had to invent it. Indeed, for all intents and purposes, this is precisely what they have done, in the form of ''The Holocaust,'' despite the distracting fact that, once upon a time, such an event actually took place. And why was ''The Holocaust'' fabricated? Because it legitimizes ''one of the world's most formidable military powers,'' Israel, allowing it to ''cast itself as a 'victim' state,'' and because it provides ''the most successful ethnic group in the United States,'' the Jews, with ''immunity to criticism,'' leading to ''the moral corruptions that typically attend'' such immunity.

Finkelstein views himself as innocent of any desire to exploit ''The Holocaust'' for his own ends, unlike his apparently countless enemies. The fact that his sensational ''revelations'' and outrageous accusations draw a great deal of public and media attention is no fault of his own. Nor is his vehement anti-Zionism and seething hatred of what he perceives as a corrupt Jewish leadership in the United States anything but a reflection of a reality that only he can perceive through the clouds of mystification and demagogy that have deceived thousands of lay persons, scholars, and intellectuals. From his Mount Sinai, everything is clear and obvious. It's just that his voice is too faint to be heard in the valley.

The main culprit, in the world according to Finkelstein, is ''the Holocaust industry,'' made up of Israeli officials and fat lawyers, Jewish agents well placed in American political circles and ruthless Zionists determined to subjugate the Palestinians. Here he combines an old-hat 1960's view of Israel as the outpost of American imperialism with a novel variation on the anti-Semitic forgery, ''The Protocols of the Elders of Zion,'' which warned of a Jewish conspiracy to take over the world. Now, however, the Jewish conspiracy is intended to ''shake down'' (his favorite phrase) such innocent entities as Swiss banks, German corporations and East European owners of looted Jewish property, all in order to consolidate Jewish power and influence without giving the real survivors of the genocide anything but empty rhetoric.

Nowhere does Finkelstein mention that the main beneficiaries of compensation for forced labor will be elderly gentile men and women living their last days in poverty in Eastern Europe, or that German scholars like Ulrich Herbert, hardly an employee of ''Jewish interests,'' have been at the forefront of the struggle to gain compensation from corporations that for decades refused to admit their enormous gains from slave and forced labor. From the author's perspective, this is simply a case of organized American Jewry ''lording it over those least able to defend themselves,'' such as, presumably, the Swiss banks it was ''plotting'' to boycott, and ''the United States and its allies'' from whom it ''finagled another $70 million.''

Thus have the great powers of the world capitulated to what The Times of London called the ''Holocash'' campaign in the United States, according to Finkelstein. He reserves special contempt for the Claims Conference, an umbrella of Jewish organizations that distributes reparations funds to survivors, and quotes approvingly the right-wing Israeli Parliament member Michael Kleiner, who called the conference ''a Judenrat, carrying on the Nazis' work in different ways.'' Indeed, as Finkelstein says in another context, les extrmes se touchent: in denouncing the ''shakedown'' of German corporations, this left-wing anti-Zionist uses precisely the kind of rhetoric that Menachem Begin employed when he spoke out against taking ''blood money'' during the right-wing riots against the restitution agreement with West Germany in the early 1950's, which almost toppled the Israeli government.

There is something sad in this warping of intelligence, and in this perversion of moral indignation. There is also something indecent about it, something juvenile, self-righteous, arrogant and stupid. As was shown in Peter Novick's far more balanced (though not entirely satisfactory) book, ''The Holocaust in American Life,'' the changing perception of the Nazi genocide of the Jews has also opened the way for a variety of exploiters and small-time opportunists. Yet to make this into an international Jewish conspiracy verges on paranoia and would serve anti-Semites around the world much better than any lawyer's exorbitant fees for ''shaking down'' a German industrialist.

Finkelstein speaks of the ''Holocaust industry'' as ''cloaking itself in the sanctimonious mantle of 'needy Holocaust victims.' ''Yet he cloaks himself in that very same mantle, while at the same time showing little sympathy for the feelings of the survivors and enormous zeal in exposing the ''reckless and ruthless abandon'' of the ''Holocaust industry,'' which he calls ''the main fomenter of anti-Semitism in Europe.'' By its ''blackmailing of Swiss bankers and German industrialists,'' as well as of ''starving Polish peasants,'' the ''Holocaust industry'' seeks endlessly to augment that pile of gold, or ''Holocaust booty,'' on which Jewish and Zionist leaders are now allegedly sitting. ''The Holocaust,'' Finkelstein concludes, is possibly ''the greatest robbery in the history of mankind.''

What I find so striking about ''The Holocaust Industry'' is that it is almost an exact copy of the arguments it seeks to expose. It is filled with precisely the kind of shrill hyperbole that Finkelstein rightly deplores in much of the current media hype over the Holocaust; it is brimming with the same indifference to historical facts, inner contradictions, strident politics and dubious contextualizations; and it oozes with the same smug sense of moral and intellectual superiority.

This book is, in a word, an ideological fanatic's view of other people's opportunism, by a writer so reckless and ruthless in his attacks that he is prepared to defend his own enemies, the bastions of Western capitalism, and to warn that ''The Holocaust'' will stir up an anti-Semitism whose significance he otherwise discounts. Like any conspiracy theory, it contains several grains of truth; and like any such theory, it is both irrational and insidious. Finkelstein can now be said to have founded a Holocaust industry of his own.


Omer Bartov's most recent book is ''Mirrors of Destruction: War, Genocide, and Modern Identity.''

94 posted on 01/18/2002 5:04:19 PM PST by vrwc54
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To: Romulus
Thanks for all of those links. Are you familiar with the Pope Pius XII Society? Sr. Margherita is a good friend of my family.
95 posted on 01/18/2002 5:20:21 PM PST by ELS
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To: vrwc54
I know Omer Bartov from my time at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton. I really don't know what Bartov has in mind in accusing Finkelstein of "indifference to historical fact." I don't know what "historical fact" Finkelstein ignores.
96 posted on 01/18/2002 5:27:12 PM PST by aristeides
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To: ELS
I meant to include this quote in my last reply:

"I am reminded of the year 1943, when millions of Jews and other Europeans suffered the horrors of the Holocaust. The eternal city was bombed during a two-hour attack. The Holy Father hurried from the Vatican to the streets of Rome. He stood in the midst of the terrorized people as buildings collapsed in piles of smoldering rubble and bombs exploded on all sides. The Romans ran toward him for guidance and strength. With hands and cassock smeared with the blood of the dead and the wounded, he blessed them. Then, Pope Pius XII consoled his flock and took care of the immediate needs of the victims. He was acclaimed Defensor Civitatis." - Sr. Margherita Marchione

97 posted on 01/18/2002 5:30:25 PM PST by ELS
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To: vrwc54
Note that the Bartov review at least admits that Finkelstein "readily acknowledges" that the Holocaust took place. Anybody who reads his book will realize how absurd it is to call him a "Holocaust denier."
98 posted on 01/18/2002 5:35:02 PM PST by aristeides
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To: aristeides
Schadenfreude may be a human weakness which those of us who are not saints cannot avoid being guilty of. But you seem to me to wallow in it.

Oh yes indeed I am a big fan of Schadenfreude.

I'll be Schadenfreude-ing all over the place the day they announce that Osama is dead. Do I take pleasure in the misery of Nazis? You betcha!

99 posted on 01/18/2002 5:37:00 PM PST by veronica
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To: veronica
The Forward is Liberal. The Jewish Press is conservative. The Forward was for Clinton. The Jewish Press endorsed BUSH...............I suggest you transfer your support of the Holocaust denier Finkelstein to Elie Weisel, a true hero of the Holocaust, who was by President Bush's side on Holocaust Commemoration Day. And try not to call names.

Excuse me, but Elie Weisel was also a big Clinton supporters as well.

100 posted on 01/18/2002 5:37:57 PM PST by Castlebar
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