[PleaseReadBeforeJudging] Why Only Catholicism Can Make Protestantism Work: Bouyer on Reformation

Catholic Dossier/ CERC ^ | MARK BRUMLEY

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

OP I would agree in some measure with your list..however I will say that if it is God's design then God will be glorified in it regardless of the circumstances. We could never "afford " a child..not one of them..yet each time the bread in the baskets was sufficient for "one more" I view the health issues in a similar way.

This is, basically, strict Providentialism. It is my own Presbyter's position for his own family.

I believe that God has a plan and that it is sinful to thwart that plan..that was Onan's,sin

Well, no one can, in any ultimate sense, really "thwart" God's Plan, but one can certainly disobey God's Commands (for example, display an intransigent unwillingness to bless the marriage bed with the conception of children therein), and then find out the hard way (as did Onan) that God's Plan calls for their sin to be used for the making of an Example in Judgment!!

[St.Chuck]

My question to you was: Do you honestly think that the pope....worships the Koran by kissing it?

I thought it a pretty straightforward question, requiring a yes or no but you answered it thus:

I believe that the early church was established by the martyrs who refused to bow their knee or make a token sacrifice to the emperor's idol. That was understood as a mere civic religion. Virtually no one actually worshipped the emperor. The martyrs of the early church laid down their lives to testify of their faith in Christ. And that self-sacrifice was exactly what built up the early church.

Your pope isn't in the same league. He doesn't possess any mantle of Peter.

Well...from this non-answer I can only surmise that you have a deep and abiding respect for the pope, for despite your claim to the contrary, this pope is indeed in the same league as the early martyrs. His commitment to a life in service of his church, which includes celibacy and precludes a companion to share one's life with can certainly be considered self-sacrifice. This pope's willingness to place himself at the barricades when Brezhnev threatened invasion of Poland can be categorized as sharing the virtues of the martyrs. Thirdly, this pope actually came very close to being martyred himself when he was struck by an assassin's bullets while performing his duties as " servant of the servant's of God." Furthermore, he met his assailant and showed him the mercy that Our Lord showed us by forgiving him.

Martydom and apostacy are the themes in a wonderful novel by Shusaku Endo. Entitled "Silence" it is set in 17th century Japan during the time of the first Christian missionaries there. I think that you might find the author's treatment of faith, apostacy, and martyrdom interesting.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

In the immortal words of breathless Klintonite Ann Lewis, "I think we all need to step back and take a deep breath." Please re-read this paragraph on Augustine. Augustine is saying that he agrees with the notion that God did not give the Tyrians and Sidonites the Faith in order to avoid their greater guilt upon later losing it.

He says nothing of the kind.

Augustine does not in any way endorse the "theological escape hatch" -- (that God performed not the salvific miracles amongst Tyre and Sidon due to some foreknown falling away on their parts) -- which you need in order to evade Augustine's clear treatment of Matthew 11; he merely stipulates that, even if this opinion were true, it would only serve to further prove the prior point which he has established, "that no dead person is judged for those sins" which they "would have" done if permitted to live, but only for sins actually committed:

IT MAY BE OBJECTED THAT THE PEOPLE OF TYRE AND SIDON MIGHT, IF THEY HAD HEARD, HAVE BELIEVED, AND HAVE SUBSEQUENTLY LAPSED FROM THEIR FAITH. ~~ A certain catholic disputant of no mean reputation so expounded this passage of the gospel as to say, that the Lord foreknew that the Tyrians and Sidonians would have afterwards departed from the faith, although they had believed the miracles done among them; and that in mercy He did not work those miracles there, because they would have been liable to severer punishment if they had forsaken the faith which they had once held, than if they had at no time held it. In which opinion of a learned and exceedingly acute man, why am I now concerned to say what is still reasonably to be asked, when even this opinion serves me for the purpose at which I aim? For if the Lord in His mercy did not do mighty works among them, since by these works they might possibly become believers, so that they might not be more severely punished when they should subsequently become unbelievers, as He foreknew that they would, -- it is sufficiently and plainly shown that no dead person is judged for those sins which He foreknew that he would have done, if in some manner he were not helped not to do them; just as Christ is said to have come to the aid of the Tyrians and Sidonians, if that opinion be true, who He would rather should not come to the faith at all, than that by a much greater wickedness they should depart from the faith, as, if they had come to it, He foresaw they would have done.

"If that opinion be true" is not an endorsement of the argument you seek.

Augustine merely entertains the opinion for the sake of discussion, and showing how, even if true, it only proves that Man is only judged for actual sins, not for potential sins.

But having enter entertained that opinion as it related to the Judgment of Sins (and shown it to be immaterial to that point even if true), Augustine goes on to indict that argument as it relates to Absolute Predestination (the subject of his foregoing Work):

Although if it be said, "Why was it not provided that they should rather believe, and this gift should be bestowed on them, that before they forsook the faith they should depart from this life"? I am ignorant what reply can be made.

Indeed, you admit that Augustine believes that there is no answer which can be made to this question -- a question for which you must have an answer if you intend to use this argument as a "theological escape hatch" to evade that Absolute Predestination which Augustine declared in his foregoing work to be the clear teaching Matthew 11: 20-27.

To the quasi-objection, "why didn't God just give them the Faith and take them from this world before they lost it," he essentially answers, "good question."

Indeed, it is a good question... far from being a "quasi-objection" to your attempted "theological escape hatch", it wholly refutes it.

---

Augustine: "But where are the rest left by the righteous divine judgment except in the mass of ruin, where the Tyrians and the Sidonians were left? who, moreover, might have believed if they had seen Christ's wonderful miracles. But since it was not given to them to believe, the means of believing also were denied them."
Orthodox Presbyterian: "Augustine teaches Absolute Predestination".
Squire: "Um... no, can't be!!" (Squire here adopts an argument of Prosper's which Augustine quotes in his On Perseverance, although Squire - oops - botches his reading, and attributes it to Augustine himself) "It may be objected that the people of Tyre and Sidon might, if they had heard, have believed, and have subsequently lapsed from their Faith."
Augustine: (responding to this attempted "theological escape hatch") "Why was it not provided that they should rather believe, and this gift should be bestowed on them, that before they forsook the faith they should depart from this life?"
Squire: (Silence).... no answer.
Orthodox Presbyterian: "Yeah, that's what I thought."

---

He is not writing in a hectoring or ironic tone -- as you seem to believe. Augustine honestly does not know how to answer that question. Here again, one can almost hear him tuning up to chant that Pauline hymn to the unfathomable depths of the Divine Mystery.

Uh huh. Gee, if I visualize hard enough, I can almost hear Augustine whistling dixie, too.

P'shaw, Squire. Not only does he present to you and Prosper this question of your "theological escape hatch" for which he sees no answer -- and for which, in fact, you have no answer -- Augustine further stipulates that before you may freely use this argument as a "theological escape hatch" to evade Absolute Predestination in Matthew 11, you must answer this damning counter-argument, as the counter-argument, if left unanswered, completely invalidates your proposed "theological escape hatch".

Therefore it is an advantage also to him who is taken away, lest wickedness should alter his understanding. But why this advantage should not have been given to the Tyrians and Sidonians, that they might believe and be taken away, lest wickedness should alter their understanding, he perhaps might answer who was pleased in such a way to solve the above question.

The fact that neither Prosper, nor you, has ever sucessfully answered the question, only illustrates the fact that you have no answer.

And so, in the judgment of Augustine, your "theological escape hatch" that "It may be objected that the people of Tyre and Sidon might, if they had heard, have believed, and have subsequently lapsed from their Faith", is groundless and without defense.

And so to review:

• You botched your reading of Augustine's On Predestination. Augustine clearly teaches that Matthew 11:20-27 inescapably affirms Absolute Predestination.
• You botched again in your attempt to evade Absolute Predestination, by attributing (falsely) to Augustine the "theological escape hatch" that "It may be objected that the people of Tyre and Sidon might, if they had heard, have believed, and have subsequently lapsed from their Faith". In fact, so far from endorsing this argument, Augustine raises an objection to it for which he expects no answer is possible.
• And so, you botch yet again your reading of Augustine, by admitting that you incorrectly attributed to Augustine an argument which is not his, but then failing entirely to answer Augustine's objection to that argument -- an objection which you must answer if you wish to make use of this theological escape-hatch.

This "theological escape hatch" is, has been, and remains the cornerstone of your attempted evasion of Absolute Predestination in Matthew 11: 20-27: I like St. Augustine's (and St. Jerome's) position that God foreknew that Tyre and Sidon would have believed had they seen the miracles, but that they would then have fallen away -- and therefore would have been worse off than if they had never believed.

But Augustine denies you this "escape hatch": "Therefore it is an advantage also to him who is taken away, lest wickedness should alter his understanding. But why this advantage should not have been given to the Tyrians and Sidonians, that they might believe and be taken away, lest wickedness should alter their understanding, he perhaps might answer who was pleased in such a way to solve the above question."

And so, with this "escape hatch" denied you, the fundamental question remains:

---

Matthew 11: 20 - 27 -- Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure." All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
• God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.

  True, or False?

---

Once you answer that question, you will be intellectually equipped to read Augustine.

Not until then.

Remember: The Protestant critique of Rome's "authority" centers on the fact that Augustine got this critical doctrine of God's Absolute Sovereignty right --

And this the Lord, reproaching them, declares when He says, "Woe unto thee, Chorazin and Bethsaida, because if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon which have been done in you, they would long ago have repented in dust and ashes." But can we say that even the Tyrians and Sidonians would have refused to believe such mighty works done among them, or would not have believed them if they had been done, when the Lord Himself bears witness to them that they would have repented with great humility if those signs of divine power had been done among them? (On Perseverance)

And that Rome has, in progressively greater degree for over one thousand years, gotten this critical Doctrine ever more wrong:

My readers hence perceive that the doctrine which I deliver is not new, but the doctrine which of old Augustine delivered with the consent of all the godly, and which was afterwards shut up in the cloisters of monks for almost a thousand years. -- John Calvin, The Institutes of the Christian Religion

As for the MENSA crack, probably well-deserved, and, admittedly, pretty funny. But to tell the truth, I have enough self-affirmation from knowing that I am a son of God, a son of Mary, and a son of the Church of Jesus Christ -- Catholic, Apostolic, and Roman.

A "salvation" of self-deception will damn millions who believe that they are saved.

The Calvinist teaching then, is that certain men are created specifically for the purpose that they be damned. OP, think about it -- such a teaching represents reprobation without demerit par excellence. Calvin did not necessarily use the words "reprobation without demerit" -- he may even have denied that he was teaching that heresy -- but for all practical purposes, the created-to-be-damned model is reprobation-without-demerit on a scale of which the early heretics could not have conceived. By claiming that Augustine endorses the notion of so-called double predestination, Calvinists attempt to make Augustine complicit with Calvin in this error.

The Calvinist teaching is that certain men are created specifically for the purpose that they be damned according to their foreknown iniquity. This is not "reprobation without demerit", but quite specifically "reprobation in reference to demerit". There have been so-called "supralapsarian Calvinists" or "SupraCalvinists" who teach that God permitted the Fall for the express purpose of bringing about this decreed Reprobation, but the Orthodox ("infralapsarian") Calvinist position has ever been that God decreed Reprobation as punishment for the foreknown Fall (as was Calvin's own position, reading all his work on the subject holistically). Boettner reliably estimates the incidence of Calvinists versus SupraCalvinists as being on the order of 100-to-1.

Ergo, you can attempt to tar us with the SupraCalvinist view, but this is no more intellectually honest than if I were to treat SSPX-Traditionalism as being the sole legitimate expression of Romanism (despite the fact that Conservatives outnumber Traditionalists by 100-to-1).

But, though I am happy to debate Calvin with you in the proper season. our wager was not upon your ability to read Calvin, but upon your ability to read Augustine.

And on that subject, you have a question to answer :

---

• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
• God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.

  True, or False?

---

We already know Augustine's answer. Let's see if you can answer, without thunderously botching your Augustine yet again.

In Christian charity, I leave a final thought for you. I hope that Our Lord will not take offense at what I am about to say. I'm going to say it because I don't think He will take offense. Here it is: when we leave this world, everything passes away, and there is nothing left but each of us as an individual -- an individual standing face-to-face with Jesus Christ and Him alone. I think at that ultimate moment in each of our individual existences, He is going to have a certain look or expression on His Holy Face congruent with the particular "issues" He has had with the way in which we've each lived our lives. With the Calvinists, I think it will be a pained expression. And along with this expression will be two important questions: (1) How could you convict Me of the evil of creating men for the purpose of damning them? (2)Believing Me capable of this evil, how could you, by either divine or even human logic, still worship Me as God?

As I have already noted above, your willful mis-reading and mis-representation of Calvin is a subject to be treated on its own. For the purpose of our wager (which concerns your ability to read Augustine), it serves the discussion to (temporarily) ignore Calvin's writings entirely. You may choose to congratulate yourself by supposing that I am afraid of discussing Calvin, but that ain't the case, kemosabe. I am attempting to keep our discussion to the subject agreed upon -- the Patristic Writings of Augustine.

I submit that Augustine alone -- without any reference to Calvin whatsoever -- annihilates any possible objection to Absolute Predestination.

This is the predestination of the saints,--nothing else; to wit, the foreknowledge and the preparation of God's kindnesses, whereby they are most certainly delivered, whoever they are that are delivered. But where are the rest left by the righteous divine judgment except in the mass of ruin, where the Tyrians and the Sidonians were left? who, moreover, might have believed if they had seen Christ's wonderful miracles. But since it was not given to them to believe, the means of believing also were denied them.... Therefore the eyes of the Tyrians and Sidonians were not so blinded nor was their heart so hardened, since they would have believed if they had seen such mighty works, as the Jews saw. But it did not profit them that they were able to believe, because they were not predestinated by Him whose judgments are inscrutable and His ways past finding out. ~~ (On Predestination)

But can we say that even the Tyrians and Sidonians would have refused to believe such mighty works done among them, or would not have believed them if they had been done, when the Lord Himself bears witness to them that they would have repented with great humility if those signs of divine power had been done among them? And yet in the day of judgment they will be punished; although with a less punishment than those cities which would not believe the mighty works done in them. For the Lord goes on to say, "Nevertheless, I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.".... Therefore the former shall be punished with greater severity, the latter with less; but yet they shall be punished. Again, if the dead are judged even in respect of deeds which they would have done if they had lived, assuredly since these would have been believers if the gospel had been preached to them with so great miracles, they certainly ought not to be punished; but they will be punished.... Because no dead man is judged by the good or evil things which he would have done if he had not died, otherwise the Tyrians and Sidonians would not have suffered the penalties according to what they did; but rather according to those things that they would have done, if those evangelical mighty works had been done in them, they would have obtained salvation by great repentance, and by the faith of Christ. ~~ (On Perseverance)

We know what your escape hatch has been -- "It may be objected that the people of Tyre and Sidon might, if they had heard, have believed, and have subsequently lapsed from their Faith".

And we know that Augustine has denied you this "escape hatch" -- "Therefore it is an advantage also to him who is taken away, lest wickedness should alter his understanding. But why this advantage should not have been given to the Tyrians and Sidonians, that they might believe and be taken away, lest wickedness should alter their understanding, he perhaps might answer who was pleased in such a way to solve the above question."

Your preferred "escape hatch" thus denied you, you have a question to answer:

---

• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
• God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.

  True, or False?

---

No attempt to divert the discussion to your mis-readings of Calvin will be accepted; we are not discussing your capacity for reading Calvin, but your capacity for reading Augustine.

And so you still have a question to answer.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

St.Chuck: You stated that you regarded Squire's #1429 as his piece de resistance.

I countered that, in his 1429, Squire had, in fact, made an admission which proved the indefensibility of his entire position:

To the quasi-objection, "why didn't God just give them the Faith and take them from this world before they lost it," he essentially answers, "good question."

As I said, Indeed, it is a good question... far from being a "quasi-objection" to your attempted "theological escape hatch", it wholly refutes it.

---

Augustine: "But where are the rest left by the righteous divine judgment except in the mass of ruin, where the Tyrians and the Sidonians were left? who, moreover, might have believed if they had seen Christ's wonderful miracles. But since it was not given to them to believe, the means of believing also were denied them."
Orthodox Presbyterian: "Augustine teaches Absolute Predestination".
Squire: "Um... no, can't be!!" (Squire here adopts an argument of Prosper's which Augustine quotes in his On Perseverance, although Squire - oops - botches his reading, and attributes it to Augustine himself) "It may be objected that the people of Tyre and Sidon might, if they had heard, have believed, and have subsequently lapsed from their Faith."
Augustine: (responding to this attempted "theological escape hatch") "Why was it not provided that they should rather believe, and this gift should be bestowed on them, that before they forsook the faith they should depart from this life?"
Squire: (Silence).... no answer.
Orthodox Presbyterian: "Yeah, that's what I thought."

---

This "theological escape hatch" is, has been, and remains the cornerstone of your attempted evasion of Absolute Predestination in Matthew 11: 20-27: I like St. Augustine's (and St. Jerome's) position that God foreknew that Tyre and Sidon would have believed had they seen the miracles, but that they would then have fallen away -- and therefore would have been worse off than if they had never believed.

But Augustine denies you this "escape hatch": "Therefore it is an advantage also to him who is taken away, lest wickedness should alter his understanding. But why this advantage should not have been given to the Tyrians and Sidonians, that they might believe and be taken away, lest wickedness should alter their understanding, he perhaps might answer who was pleased in such a way to solve the above question."

And so, with this "escape hatch" denied you, the fundamental question remains:

---

Matthew 11: 20 - 27 -- Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure." All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
• God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
• God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew.

  True, or False?

---

You are welcome to address the matter yourself, if you wish to make the attempt.

Because Augustine says that there is no honest treatment of Matthew 11:20-27 which can be made... save to admit the reality of Absolute, Sovereign, "Double" Predestination -- which is the very position which Rome denies.

[CCWoody]

My question to you was: Do you honestly think that the pope....worships the Koran by kissing it?

1 Kings 19:18 Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.

How is the Pope any different?

BTW, many people think that the mark of the beast will be a physical mark. What if it is nothing more than paying respect to Satan?

[RnMomof7]

BTW, many people think that the mark of the beast will be a physical mark.

like you I do not believe it will be a "physical mark"

I believe Revelations restates the command of God to HIS people

Deuteronomy6 These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts.
7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.
8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads.
9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates. 10 When the LORD your God brings you into the land he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give you--a land with large, flourishing cities you did not build,
11 houses filled with all kinds of good things you did not provide, wells you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant--then when you eat and are satisfied,
12 be careful that you do not forget the LORD, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
13 Fear the LORD your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name.

14 Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you;
15 for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land.

Deuteronomy
18 Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
19 And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
20 And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates:
21 That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth.
22 For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;

Woody I believe that what is spoken of in Revelation is a renewal of the command to the people of Israel..What do you have on your mind? What do your hands work for? Are you sold out to the world or to ME?

Psalm 24
3 Who may ascend the hill of the LORD? Who may stand in his holy place?
4 He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to an idol or swear by what is false.
5 He will receive blessing from the LORD and vindication from God his Savior.

[CCWoody]

Woody I believe that what is spoken of in Revelation is a renewal of the command to the people of Israel..What do you have on your mind? What do your hands work for? Are you sold out to the world or to ME?

But as for me, I cannot worship Him with my hands (Acts 17:25). I have a glorious Workman who works for those who wait upon Him (Isaiah 64:4).

BTW, expect a FRmail. I have finished my little post "The Goal of God in Redemptive History." I'm simply proof reading it and I need to fix the blockquotes because MSWord doesn't know how to do it right.

[GreaserX]

Did all of the protestants finally give up their arguments about Mary and bow down and worship her?

[George W. Bush]

Well...from this non-answer I can only surmise that you have a deep and abiding respect for the pope, for despite your claim to the contrary, this pope is indeed in the same league as the early martyrs.

Not exactly.

Exactly what part of "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" do you and your pope fail to grasp?

[dubyas_vision]

Show me where ANY of the things you hold true about Mary are in the bible.

Every Mention of Mary in Scripture

Other Mary Questions Answered

[the_doc]

Because Augustine says that there is no honest treatment of Matthew 11:20-27 which can be made... save to admit the reality of Absolute, Sovereign, "Double" Predestination -- which is the very position which Rome denies.

The above statement by OrthodoxPresbyterian pretty well summarizes the debate with Squire. Augustine was emphatic in teaching an absolute, sovereign, double predestination.

And Rome has emphatically denied this, has emphatically proclaimed that Calvin and Luther didn't understand Augustine. This claim is HILARIOUS, when you think about it.

My point, of course, is that the only folks who will believe Rome's lie are RCs. (They always believe Rome's lies. It is considered "faith.")

See again my #1435. It gets more significant with every new post on this thread.

Aside to St.Chuck: Squire's #1429 was an attempt to change the subject to deflect attention from the fact that he got slaughtered in the debate concerning what Augustine taught. You need to be honest enough to see that. So far, you are choosing to be fooled. (We Calvinists run into this all the time with RCs.)

[GreaserX]

I like to eat fruit.

[the_doc]

Me too! Ah, but we all need to watch out for the bad figs!

[RnMomof7]

Me too! Ah, but we all need to watch out for the bad figs!

And the trees that have lots of leaves and pretend to have fruit but are barren :>)..Jesus cursed them!

So many things to think about. If only I had a Mensa group :>)

[GreaserX]

Waaahhhhhhh. I was trying to be nice and you say that I am a rotten fig tree to be cut down and thrown into the fire! waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[RnMomof7]

Waaahhhhhhh. I was trying to be nice and you say that I am a rotten fig tree to be cut down and thrown into the fire! waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW I wasn't talking about you *GRIN*

[St.Chuck]

Exactly what part of "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" do you and your pope fail to grasp?

As for me, I fail to grasp the part where you think that the act of kissing a book constitutes having an "other god." As for me, I believe that the 1st commandment requires us not to love anything or anyone as much as we love God. We owe God a special love and it should acknowlege His supreme position over all creation. Nothing that He has made should compete with our love for Him. Material goods and earthly pleasures are the most common of the "other gods" that vie for our attention.

As for the pope, I recognize that he follows the first commandment more strictly than my understanding of it. In the spirit of Mark, Chapter 10, this pope gave up everything to follow the Lord. I know that in his duties as priest, bishop, cardinal,and pope the last 50+ years he has adored, begged mercy, and given thanks to God Almighty everyday of his life, while bringing the gospel to perhaps 10's of thousands of hungry souls. It would be difficult to imagine anyone more committed to the 1st commandment.

As for your allegation that kissing a book, kissing a baby, kissing a championship trophy, or giving any sign of affection, show of respect, honor, or dignity to anyone or anything is automatic idolatry...well, that is silly.

[St.Chuck]

Thank you for summing up your exegis on Augustine. I sincerely appreciate the time you took to explain your point of view. I found the discussion most interesting and very informative. Are there other scriptural references to the doctrine of predestination?