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[PleaseReadBeforeJudging] Why Only Catholicism Can Make Protestantism Work: Bouyer on Reformation
Catholic Dossier/ CERC ^ | MARK BRUMLEY

Posted on 01/05/2002 11:55:52 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM

click here to read article


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1 posted on 01/05/2002 11:55:53 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: proud2bRC
I tried, but couldn't get through it.
2 posted on 01/05/2002 12:08:40 PM PST by DeaconBenjamin
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To: *Catholic_list; *Christian_list; patent; notwithstanding; JMJ333
Bumping (I don't have my ping list on this computer, I'll bump to the rest of it later.)
3 posted on 01/05/2002 12:12:10 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: dansangel
Ping.
4 posted on 01/05/2002 12:41:48 PM PST by .45MAN
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To: proud2bRC
Thanks for posting this. It took a while but it is well worth reading. And I must say well worth passing on....
5 posted on 01/05/2002 12:43:53 PM PST by .45MAN
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To: proud2bRC
Bump for later reading.
6 posted on 01/05/2002 12:48:03 PM PST by Ol' Sox
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To: Ol' Sox
Bump!
7 posted on 01/05/2002 12:59:16 PM PST by Loyalist
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To: proud2bRC
Utter hogwash.

Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the light. None shall come to the Father but through me."

No pennance, no "Hail Mary's", no confession to a priest behind a curtain, just prayerful confession to God in the name of Jesus Christ is all the Bible says will work to free us of sin.

Christ warned against repeating prayers over and over, and referred to those who do so as "pagans." So much for "Say 3 'Our fathers' and 6 'Hail Marys'."

Any "religion" that contradicts or denies Christ is the work of other than Christ, who said: "You are either with me, or against me..."

8 posted on 01/05/2002 1:05:16 PM PST by Dynamo
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To: proud2bRC
Too long and too profound, for this venue and day, but if you are saying that Catholicism and Protestantism need each other, and the coexistence of both are in God's plan for today, you are right.

Just as the coexistence of both Church and Israel has served God's plan.

9 posted on 01/05/2002 1:09:01 PM PST by crystalk
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To: proud2bRC
I got through it, but the guy starts with the 16th Century, and he ought to start with the 15th Century.

That way he can carve his way through the various French Cardinals who had one or more wives, often simultaneously, along with official concubines (for breeding purposes only).

These fellows, intriguingly, seem to be the Fathers and Grandfathers of the guys who started the Protestant Reformation in France!

Presumably the same situation prevailed in Germany, France and Spain.

Hey, even Isabella of Spain had a grandpa who was a Cardinal! You'd have never known it from the way she acted - always discussing "their Catholic Majesties", etc. Probably some sort of reaction to grandpa's bad behavior, eh?!

10 posted on 01/05/2002 1:11:56 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: proud2bRC
While keeping Sola Gratia New England Protestant elites ditched Sola Fide and eventually Sola Scriptura. With Harvard leading the charge, Congregationalist/Unitarians were building a kingdom of God on earth. As the article mentions, Catholics are truer to true Protestantism than many Protestants are.
11 posted on 01/05/2002 1:14:49 PM PST by LarryLied
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To: DeaconBenjamin
Don't worry, it wouldn't have been worth the effort.

I'll synopsize. The Catholic Church goes to some justifiably convoluted lengths to prove with the article the claim they make at the outset:

"Interpreting the Reformation is complicated business."

The Catholic Church hopes to convince the reader that it really is complicated, and that the reader must look to them for understanding.

The fact is, it is really very simple.

Biblical Christians practice religion as instructed by God and Jesus in the Holy Bible for the glory of God.

Catholics practice a cultic paganism created by men who sought to use religion for their own worldly power.

Period. It is this simple fact which the Catholics attempt to hide from you with the mumbo-jumbo found in this artcle.

12 posted on 01/05/2002 1:15:32 PM PST by Dynamo
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To: proud2bRC
There's a bit of a problem here. Luther didn't say "sola gratia," he said "sola fide" (and also "sola scriptura"). "Sola fide" causes problems that "sola gratia" does not. The recent statement, "Catholics and Evangelicals Together" needed a kind of footnote on this very point of "sola fide."

The Council of Trent clearly states that without grace, no one can be saved. No one can earn salvation, and grace is gratuitous, not earned. But that wasn't quite what Luther said. The Council of Trent also said, in effect, in response to Luther, that faith without works is empty. Many Protestants actually agree, as in Milton's phrase in "Paradise Lost," "Faith and Faithful Works." But the basic position on which Luther stood goes beyond that to "sola fide," and that is a problem.

13 posted on 01/05/2002 1:16:13 PM PST by Cicero
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To: Dynamo; .45MAN; proud2bRC
"Christ warned against repeating prayers over and over, and referred to those who do so as "pagans." So much for "Say 3 'Our fathers' and 6 'Hail Marys'."

Where in "scripture" does it say this? Interpretation of the Holy Bible is subjective.

The Catholics believe in the Douay-Rheims version of the bible. Unlike the King James version, it is a "faithful translation into English of the Latin Vulgate Bible which St. Jerome (342-420) translated into Latin from the original languages." (quoted from the "Preface.") It has not been "sanitized" and re-translated and slanted so that Scripture can be quoted to fit what you NEED it to fit.

Catholicism evolved from Judaism 2000 years ago. Protestantism broke away from Catholicism 500 years ago. And you have the GALL to infer that Catholics are pagans?

14 posted on 01/05/2002 1:21:37 PM PST by dansangel
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To: dansangel
"And you have the GALL to infer that Catholics are pagans?"

I think you meant "imply." And no, I do not imply this.

I state it as fact. Simple, unadulterated, inarguable fact. Your lack of familiarty with Jesus' teachings speaks for itself. Read your Bible, and you won't have to ask me where Jesus said this.

God bless you.

15 posted on 01/05/2002 1:28:14 PM PST by Dynamo
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To: proud2bRC
The assertion that conscience is supreme, which came out of Vatican II, united us Catholics and Protestants, whether we like it or not. That is the great truth that lies hidden in all the liturgy and clothing changes that everyone seems to have focused on. This truth will eventually bring us together.

I have been thinking about the matters discussed above in terms of Islam and Christianity. Just as Catholicism guaranteed the development of Protestantism, as a rebellion against Catholic error and corruption, so Islam had to emerge as the jealous brother of Christianity---the martyr and the martyror, the flowering of our headlong rush to overpopulation and its insanities of mass death. (I know I lost a lot of you there, if not immediately.)

16 posted on 01/05/2002 1:29:49 PM PST by firebrand
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To: Dynamo
Had the same article been written by a Protestant, there would be a lack of "protestant-bashing" by the Catholic side.

As to your condescending attitude, I have no patience for such a lame non-response.

May YOUR God bless you!

17 posted on 01/05/2002 1:31:16 PM PST by dansangel
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To: Dynamo
Utter hogwash.

That is an entirely accurate summary of your knowledge of Catholicism and the Bible.

18 posted on 01/05/2002 1:32:57 PM PST by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: dansangel
What do you find Jesus saying in Matthew 6:7? It's quoted from Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.

I'm not bashing anyone, and I truly apologize if my words seem haughty. There is no gentle way to call a cult a cult. It is nonetheless a very important message. I do love you and all my fellow sinners.

19 posted on 01/05/2002 1:47:15 PM PST by Dynamo
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To: SMEDLEYBUTLER
I was raised a Catholic, My aunt is a Dominican Sister, and I converted from Catholicism in my 40's... and that was some time ago. You presume much, yet know very little... a trait we share, all us men.
20 posted on 01/05/2002 1:49:36 PM PST by Dynamo
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