"Death of the West" -- Echoes from the Third Reich?

[Luis Gonzalez]

American culture is a mish-mash of a myriad of cultures, each immigrant wave added to it, changing it a bit perhaps, but never, hurting it.

The idea that is America, is one of people bounde together by certain ideals, and not so much ethinicity, or even religion.

Best explained by three simple words found on the back of every dollar bill ever printed: "E Pluribus Unum".

[Southern Federalist]

Seems to me that your analysis leaves conservatives with two choices. We can leave control of the naturalization process and the larger education establishment with the multiculturalists and try to win a meaningless victory by stopping immigration. It would be meaningless because then it'll just be the John Suleyman Abdul Walkers with good ethnic pedigrees that destroy the country. Or we can focus our energies on fighting for a revival of citizenship education in our schools and also in the naturalization process. I think that post 9-11 we have a window of opportunity on this.

I think the country needs a common language and I support English-only education as commonsense kindness to immigrant kids so they can succeed here. But I also wish some conservative foundation would start producing textbooks and translations and tracts on the meaning of American ordered liberty in Spanish and Arabic and other languages. I have an old German songbook from Iowa with the Star-Spangled Banner translated into German - it's a weird thing to contemplate but I bet it helped keep a lot of midwest Germans out of the German-American Bund in WWII.

[Godebert]

One only need look at your Freerepublic bookmarks to see what you're all about. Morris Dees.....is that you?

[hobbes1]

You know Pat has a new TV show...?

Third Reich From the Sun

....LOL

[Godebert]

The Death of the West : How Mass Immigration, Depopulation & A Dying Faith Are Killing Our Culture and Country
by Patrick J. Buchanan

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Hardcover - 320 pages (December 12, 2001)
Dunne Books; ISBN: 0312285485 ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.06 x 9.58 x 6.41

Amazon.com Sales Rank: 4

Ranked number 4 already. Put that in your bong and smoke it you leftist shill.

[hobbes1]

One only need look at your Freerepublic bookmarks to see what you're all about. Morris Dees.....is that you?

Morris Dees and the Time?

Hey can you get me Appolonias autograph?

[nonliberal]

Here we go again.

[hobbes1]

Patsie Ping

[BnBlFlag]

Pat Buchanon is right on in his new book. You trying to compare him to the Nazis only make you look ridiculous and uneducated.

[Davidb72]

Maybe not EVERYTHING the NAZIS did was evil. Did that ever occur to you? Not everything the COMMUNISTS did was EVIL either. Guess that'll blow your mind huh???

[Who is George Salt?]

You purposely, tendentiously, and mendaciously left out an important part of the June 26, 1857 speech:

"...but he and Judge Douglas argue that the authors of that instrument did not intend to include negroes, by the fact that they did not at once, actually place them on an equality with the whites. Now this grave argument comes to just nothing at all, by the other fact, that they did not at once, or ever afterwards, actually place all white people on an equality with one or another. And this is the staple argument of both the Chief Justice and the Senator, for doing this obvious violence to the plain unmistakable language of the Declaration. I think the authors of that notable instrument intended to include all men, but they did not intend to declare all men equal in all respects. They did not mean to say all were equal in color, size, intellect, moral developments, or social capacity. They defined with tolerable distinctness, in what respects they did consider all men created equal—equal in "certain inalienable rights, among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." This they said, and this meant. They did not mean to assert the obvious untruth, that all were then actually enjoying that equality, nor yet, that they were about to confer it immediately upon them. In fact they had no power to confer such a boon. They meant simply to declare the right, so that the enforcement of it might follow as fast as circumstances should permit. They meant to set up a standard maxim for free society, which should be familiar to all, and revered by all; constantly looked to, constantly labored for, and even though never perfectly attained, constantly approximated, and thereby constantly spreading and deepening its influence, and augmenting the happiness and value of life to all people of all colors everywhere. The assertion that "all men are created equal" was of no practical use in effecting our separation from Great Britain; and it was placed in the Declaration, not for that, but for future use. Its authors meant it to be, thank God, it is now proving itself, a stumbling block to those who in after times might seek to turn a free people back into the hateful paths of despotism. They knew the proneness of prosperity to breed tyrants, and they meant when such should re-appear in this fair land and commence their vocation they should find left for them at least one hard nut to crack."

Your post is just more "Abe Lincoln was the anti-Christ and the Civil War had nothing to do with Slavery" drivel from a neo-Confederate LOSer.

[Who is George Salt?]

Oh come on! There is no such person as Morris Dees. That's an urban legend, much like the bogeyman or the Yeti, a character conjured up by skinhead parents to frighten and cajole their children:

"Say your prayers before bed time, Little Adolf, or Morris Dees will come get you!"

And,

"Finish your vegetables - don't you know Aryan children are starving in Idaho?"

Poor little Aryans, Morris Dees took their parent's "farm" away from them. He-he-he.

You guys really ought to stop hanging out at that "Jew Watch" website.

[Who is George Salt?]

"You're also right that Calhoun was the fountainhead of ethnic nationalism (at the state level) in America. I've finished with the Neo-Confed wars, so I won't get started on that, but it's no accident that his biggest fans in contemporary America are left-wing group-rights advocates like Lani Guinier."

Very good. The "States Rights" that Calhoun and his neo-confederate heirs extol are indeed group-rights, meant to be accessible to one group (white males) and inaccessible to others (most notably, non-whites).

[Who is George Salt?]

Buchanan's deterioration has been gaining momentum recently, hasn't it?

I heard that poor Pat missed out on the late 90s boom. Rather than put his money in the stock market, Pat bought into the whole Y2K "the world as we know it is coming to an end" scenario and kept all his money in cash and gold. Simply put, Pat needs the money - that's why he's launched his little mini-media-blitz to promote this book.

[Who is George Salt?]

Maybe not EVERYTHING the NAZIS did was evil. Did that ever occur to you?

Uh, OK. They had some good tailors - those SS officer uniforms were really sharp. Other than that, it WAS all evil.

[Davidb72]

Was the fact that they were doing what they thought was best for their country evil too? Believe me, I am NOT advocating or minimalizing anything they did, but they did what they thought was best for GERMANY.

Now, here we have P.B. telling us what he thinks is best for AMERICA. Do you think we should do what is best for America? You and I can disagree about what is best for AMERICA, but I don't think we can disagree about whether or not we should do what is best for AMERICA.

If you have a problem doing what is best for AMERICA, maybe you belong somewhere else...

[x]

Or we can focus our energies on fighting for a revival of citizenship education in our schools and also in the naturalization process. I think that post 9-11 we have a window of opportunity on this.

I can go along with that. But I would not call a reduction or pause of immigration "meaningless." A forty year limitation of immigration -- plus great national crises which demanded working together, and an assimilationist educational policy -- made it possible for America to assimilate the last great wave of immigrants. It's unlikely that this could have been done by a pause in immigration alone, but equally unlikely that it could have been achieved with out that pause.

Americans love to contrast our "civic nationalism" with the "ethnic nationalism" of much of Europe. There's validity to this, given all the horrors that ethnic nationalism produced in Germany, Yugoslavia and elsewhere in Europe. But the tragedy of Europe is that civic nationalism proved so weak in dealing with ethnic conflicts. And civic national ideas themselves have also produced horrors in the French and Russian Revolutions.

Moreover, it's not simply a matter of blood versus propositions. There is a cultural component to both ethnic and civic nationalism. It's pretty clear now that the United States must have a civic rather than an ethnic base. The concern with what's going on in America now is whether civic ideas can survive a great change in the cultural base of the nation.

Also, it's not an either/or question. There have been societies in the Carribean, South America, and Africa, that are ethnically heterogeneous, but developed no civic unity. People don't want to end up like Argentina or Guyana -- diverse but with nothing to bind us together. What they object to in pro-immigrationists is that many of them talk about civic nationalism and ignore building up the kind of civic institutions that make assimilation possible. If you want to do that kind of nation-building, it's a plus, but people will still have doubts about how much you can achieve through it without external crises or enemies.

Also, nobody wants to be a minority if they can help it. Of course somebody always has to be, and in different ways we are all in the minority and in the majority. But it looks like a government that doesn't respect the desire of the ethnic majority to remain a majority isn't doing its job. Then again, part of Buchanan's message is that the majority doesn't really want to be a majority. It just wants the benefits of being a majority.

Whites are willing to accept and embrace a great degree of ethnic diversity, but they fear the tipping point, which will make them a minority. It's not simply whites alone, though, those who grew up in one world, are always concerned about what change may do to that world. That's only human nature, and it's understandable, looking at the changes that a transfer of ethnic hegemony has wrought in South Africa and elsewhere. The question is whether propositions, how ever valuable, can offset the effects of cultural change. I hope they will, but it's not clear that we can answer that question with any authority now.

Looking around the world at the kind of imperial break-ups that have been going on for fifty years and show every sign of continuing, it's not beyond possibility that the the United States will fragment as well. Pat may be an alarmist in the details, but he is willing to deal with this question that many are willing to close their eyes to. Strengthening civic education and civic ideals is good policy, but will it be enough?

Perhaps White fears of becoming a minority are exaggerated. Perhaps we should be optimistic and believe that we will survive a change in the racial composition of the country by holding to our American principles and propositions. But will this save us from fragmentation, given that those principles have already been used in the past to justify rebellion and division? A wise statesman will promote the principles, but be wary of letting the country become too "diverse" to survive as a nation.

[Southern Federalist]

Whites are willing to accept and embrace a great degree of ethnic diversity, but they fear the tipping point, which will make them a minority.

Some whites maybe, but I doubt even a strong minority. If whites are staying up nights fretting about this all over the place, why couldn't Pat ever get any traction? Even in the Southwest?

When government makes itself a tool of an ethnic group and its fears and cravings, what you've got is another form of tyranny. Buchanan is just group-rights victim politics for white people.

[x]

You have apparently missed the posts about White flight from California.

While these concerns have a natural constituency in the White population they aren't confined to it. As has been noted on this thread many Blacks and Hispanics are also concerned about immigration. I mentioned the White minority question because it comes up often, but Blacks are very much aware that immigration dilutes their stake and status in the country, and many Hispanics are also disturbed by the effects of high immigration, as some of the posts on earlier threads about this topic indicate.

Representative government means responsiveness to the concerns of the public. Lyndon Johnson's stroke of evil genius was to convince the ruling class that the wishes of the majority could be characterized as those of a race, therefore as racist and therefore unworthy of consideration, thereby allowing the government to disregard the wishes of the majority of Americans, whatever race they may be. A government that is more responsive to the wishes of those who want to come here than to those who are already here isn't working in the interests of its primary constituency.