Switzerland: Parliament Moves Towards Legalising Cannabis

Swiss Info ^ | Dec. 13, 2001

[WyldKard]

Well then, I guess my next project is to dig up recent murder stats on both Amsterdam AND London.

Regardless, the fact remains...NONE of them can hold a candle to the murder rate in New York City (and you and I both know we don't need to dig anything up to know THAT :)....in the land where the War on Drugs originated.....so the assertion that Prohibition of drugs prevents muders seems to be a flawed one at that...

Especially when we see how nasty things got when alcohol got banned....

[WyldKard]

I'll tell you another thing, driving a car impaired is wrong period, but if I had a choice between a drunk & somebody that just burned one, i'll take the pot head everytime. Alcohol impairs your ability to drive, for sure.

I've been in cars where the drive was a fair bit stoned, and probably should not have been driving...and my only complaint was that the bastard was TOO SLOW and overly cautious. Kept driving 10 miles under the speed limit. Thank God he wasn't drunk, or I'd probably be dead...

[mlocher]

if i had to pick one that had the least side effects, it would be pot

not that i disagree with you, but why do you feel inclined to pick one?

personally i select wine for its proven beneficial body therapy. also, the neighbors do not complain about the side effects.

[HELLRAISER II]

The term Paranoid comes to mind, but your right most people do slow down and are more cautious, that's a fact jack.

[HELLRAISER II]

Why do I feel inclined to pick one? I don't know, pot doesn't have any calories & doesn't impair my ability to think or react and simply because it's the subject matter of this thread.

[WyldKard]

personally i select wine for its proven beneficial body therapy. also, the neighbors do not complain about the side effects.

So as long as the neighbors don't complain, you should be free to smoke pot in the privacy of your own home? (Pot also has it's own proven benefits as well, btw.)

If thats what you think..careful..that's dangerously libertarian of you ;-)

[Mikey]

Its absolutely amazing how some people will proclaim liberty and yet still deny liberty to others. In a free country people have the right to do anything these please as long as they don't infringe upon the life, liberty or property of another.

If pot were totally decriminalized and people were left alone we wouldn't have the problems we have today.

As you stated "Crime flourished during the prohibition" and if some people (who keep putting weed down) would open their eyes to the truth (as set by example during prohibition) Than they will see that the crime rate soared during that time. There was turf wars (mob wars), drive by shootings (hits). There were more alcoholics during prohibition then before or after.
People like the Kennedy's, Vanderbilts, and others were "boot leggers" and made all kinds of coin during prohibition.

Even some everyday people (like maybe your grandmother(s) and my grandmother(s) and the grandmothers(s) of those who would deny liberty to others) made what was known at the time as "bathtub gin" and sold it (oh no drug dealers) for a profit.
Those deniers of liberty to others, I have a question. Do think your grandmother(s) should have been locked up for 10-? years for their so called horrific crimes? You know maybe if they were, you'd never have been born??????????? That's another debate.

The only way (as set down by example by the repealing of prohibition) to eliminate the drug dealers thus also eliminating the drive bys, turf wars, etc., is to take away the incentive to deal, completely decriminalize marijuana. The price will plummet. The taboo will disappear.

What else would happen if pot were decriminalized?

1). The prisons would loose about 60% of its population, thus leaving more room for the real criminals, such as;

A) Murder's,

B). Rapists, .

C). Homosexual pedophiles,

D). Burglars an other thieves,

What else would happen if pot were decriminalized? All those draconian laws would disappear and maybe we the people could pursue happiness (as long as we don't infringe upon the life, liberty or property of another) and help those who are addicted to whatever they are addicted to. Whether that addiction be alcohol, drugs (both legal and not), or anything else one may be addicted to.

[Wolfie]

bump

[marsis]

please cite the source of your claim

most recently it was knight hawk, who lives in amsterdam, and is a fellow freeper. it was also in la figero, a french newspaper, march 2000, when i was there

Tin foil ready. I believe that statistic was stated by the current DRUG CZAR during or shortly after a trip to Europe this year. I can't remember where I read it but it quoted him. The statisitc was summarily dismissed by the European press but we didn't even hear of that over here, only the statistic spewed by Big Brother and his merry band of fascists. I will look for the quote.

[mlocher]

that's dangerously libertarian of you ;>)

i made a personal statement that i do not believe drugs are proper in our society, but nowhere did i say that the federal government has a right to legislate the use of marijuana. i believe those decisions are best left to the state and local goverments.

if you really wanted to piss me off, you would call me a democrat (smile)

[mlocher]

why do i pick one?...because it is the subject of this thread

you are entitled to your choice as far as i am concerned. others will not see it that way. thanks for your openness

[mlocher]

tin foil already

sorry you feel that way.

[mlocher]

regardless, the fact remains, none of them can hold a candle to the murder rate in nyc

i agree with you. there are significant differences between the united states of america and the united states of europe. violence is despised in europe (except at soccer games). all one has to do is watch television: plenty of sex and little violence on their equivalent of network tv. further, guns have been outlawed in most of europe. finally, their is less ethnic diversity in europe. while diversity is a wonderful thing, it has its downside: racism and bigotry. not as much a problem in most of europe. (last thing: everyone is keeping a leery eye on germany... [smile])

my point is that comparing the murder rate of amsterdam and new york is not necessarily an apples to apples comparison.

[Melinator]

Source please.

[marsis]

Ok, I was off a bit on names and dates but the underlying realities are the same. It is not the current Czar but Barry McCaffrey, lying fascist czar under Clinton who made the statement. Same players different Presidents.

try this for more lies from big brother

[Wolfie]

amsterdam and new york is not necessarily an apples to apples comparison.

Don't you mean apples to Big Apples? And New York used to be called New Amsterdam...Conicidence? I think not! (Ok, gimme a break, its been l-o-n-g week).

[knighthawk]

Yes, I live in Holland and I found the original article on internet, from one of our national newspapers, "De Telegraaf". Goto www.telegraaf.nl, the "zoeken": button (left) and in the search-field type "moordhoofdstad". And there you have it. It is Dutch so I took the liberty of translating it for you people. Here it is:

Amsterdam is mudercapital
30 aug 2001

AMSTERDAM - Amsterdam not only is the capital from the Netherlands, but also the "mudercapital" from the EU.

That became evident after research of the English ministry of Foreign Affairs concerning crime in Europe, where an average was calcualted over the 1997-1999 period.

The average number of killing per 100.000 citizens is in Amsterdam 5,4, the chance of getting killed by violence in a much larger city like Rome is 4 times as low: 1,22 per 100.000.

After Amsterdam is Copenhagen the most unlikely place to live in, followed by Madrid and Berlin. Relativly safe are -next to Rome- Athens, Vienna and Oslo.

End of translation.

But I do not completely agree on legislating drugs. Softdrugs are legal here. But when you legalize all drugs, you do not remove the criminals or their crimes. Do people really think that when the dealers don't make money with selling drugs anymore, will simply stop crime and start to make a decent living? No, they will move on to other crimes, like mugging, armed robbery (this week a supermarket owner was shot dead by an Antilian and a Moroccanor robber when he visited his store on his free day) or carjacking. I do admit that junks steal a lot. But I'd rather have a junkie steal my bike or car-stereo than a Moroccan or Turk stab or shoot me to steal my purse or car (we are not allowed self-defence over here and when the police tries to take the illigal guns from the "forgein" criminals it's called discrimination) because he can't afford one since he lost his income dealing drugs.

I live in Holland and I am sick and tired of my country being ruined by the lefties. The liberals flushed all our moral values down the drain! We Dutch people used to be assiocated with windmills and wooden shoes, but thesedays it's the drugs and prostitution. Our police will not even try to stop things like rapes and shootings, but they rather crack-down on people speeding a few miles on the road. In many of our cities it's not safe to walk the streets at night. Believe me, I live there!

[WyldKard]

i agree with you. there are significant differences between the united states of america and the united states of europe. violence is despised in europe (except at soccer games). all one has to do is watch television: plenty of sex and little violence on their equivalent of network tv. further, guns have been outlawed in most of europe. finally, their is less ethnic diversity in europe. while diversity is a wonderful thing, it has its downside: racism and bigotry. not as much a problem in most of europe. (last thing: everyone is keeping a leery eye on germany... [smile])

my point is that comparing the murder rate of amsterdam and new york is not necessarily an apples to apples comparison.

Wait a minute. First you make a broad, generalized statement that implied that Amsterdamn was the Murder capital of Europe, and that access to soft drugs caused this. And NOW you are admitting that maybe there are more complicated and diverse cultural factors involved when I show how New York City, a city in a country with harsh drug laws, has MORE murder?

You want to just admit that maybe you were making a bit of a stretch in your original statement before you have to backpeddle too far? :)

[WyldKard]

Lbut they rather crack-down on people speeding a few miles on the road. In many of our cities it's not safe to walk the streets at night. Believe me, I live there!

While I feel for you knighthawk...wait a second, I live in a higher crime zone than Amsterdam...well anyhow...the point being..it doesn't sound like the drugs are to blame, more like an incompetant police force that needs to be reigned in.

Amsterdams problem is that while they made it legal to have pot and stuff, they STILL criminalized the means of production. Which is VERY stupid. You can't do this sort of thing half assed. The Government needs to regulate, control and help sell the product, like we do with booze and cigs here...

[Deep_6]

re:
"... Do people really think that when the dealers don't make
money with selling drugs anymore, will simply stop crime 
and start to make a decent living? No, they will move on to 
other crimes, like mugging, armed robbery...."

That little piece of literary debauchery is.... how do you say
it in your country?...... a "hoot"?

There is more of a problem of the users attempting to support
their quest for drugs by committing criminal acts to pay for the
illicit drugs, than the problem of what the dealers will do for a
living if we take their career away. To suggest that we will create
more criminal activity by driving a drug lord into "street crime",
is enough to make me wet my pants. [oh...wait... no, that's coffee]

And the rest of your statements:
"...I live in Holland..."  "..In many of our cities it's not safe to
walk the streets at night.."

Just how many "cities" do you have in Holland?

And your:
"..Our police will not even try to stop things like rapes and
shootings, but they rather crack-down on people speeding..."

Uhmm... you're not suggesting any reader believes that, are you?

The one that really got me was this one:

"....The liberals flushed all our moral values down the drain! We
Dutch people used to be assiocated with windmills and wooden shoes...."

Bwaaahahahaaa...  oops sorry..

Yes, you are correct. The prostitutes were having much problem
walking the streets in those wooden shoes! Not to mention their
tricks being turned off by the noise from those wind machines..
[talk about a bj]

You're going to have to do a bit more research on Holland and
come back to try again, ok?

It was great to smile again, though. I thank you for that.