Switzerland: Parliament Moves Towards Legalising Cannabis

Swiss Info ^ | Dec. 13, 2001

[mlocher]

yes, but they say that the liberarian party is skyrocketing

i trust you but wyldkard and wolfie probably do not. can you please cite your source for their edification?

they apparently are skeptics of things posted on this thread

thanks!

[mlocher]

we know you can do better than this

i actually gave you two valid sources. i can refine the march 2000 to march 13 - 16 if you would like. i actually expected you to blast me for trusting a french newspaper. i think you can do better...

enjoy the day!

[mlocher]

the dutch murder rate is one quarter the us murder rate

source please. not that i doubt you, but turnabout is fair play!

[WyldKard]

they apparently are skeptics of things posted on this thread

If you are infering that we don't allow ourselves to be mindless sheep who actually believe without question wide, sweeping, generalized statements like "Amsterdam has the highest murder rate in the world, and it's all due to easy access to soft drugs", then I thank you for your kind compliment.

I DAMN well expect you to be able to back up this statement, if you want me to even come CLOSE to accepting it as fact.

The onus is on you to prove: A) That Amsterdam is indeed the murder capital of Europe (that should be easy to do) and B) That there is a direct link between this rise in murder and a sole link to the drug issue (a lot tricker, I'll grant you.)

Sorry, I guess it's the Missouri blood in me...

[Wolfie]

Homicide Deaths per 100,000 Population
Males Age 15-24
United States 36.8
Canada 3.0
United Kingdom 2.1
Norway 1.9
Finland 1.9
Sweden 1.8
Germany 1.3
Netherlands 0.8
Japan 0.6
Source: World Health Statistics, Annual 1995,
(Geneva: World Health Organization, 1996),
Table B-1. "Homicide" refers to "E55: Homicide
and injury purposely inflicted by other persons."

[mlocher]

amsterdam is the murder capital of the world and it is all due to the easy access of soft drugs

that is not what i posted. please re-read.

when you take the time to read the sources cited, do you also read what you want to see, or do you take the time to actually try to understand it?

[Dane]

And this is related to the effectiveness of drug policy in Amsterdam....how?

Uh IMHO, it shows that countries with lax drug views also have lax social(IMHO destructive) views.

Maybe you are just pissed that I so completely sunk that little article you used to post about the coffee houses that you've begun to resort to "debate by proxy.", where you have one semi or unrelated topic take the place of the actual subject matter..

Huh? You can think what you want to think, but that still doesn't change the facts about Holland.

[Dane]

Source: World Health Statistics, Annual 1995,

Uh that's a UN source, bit biased don't you think.

[mlocher]

thanks. i believed you in the first place. this data is not inconsistent with that in la figuero.

[Dakmar]

That's right Dane, they've been trying for many years now to make Norway look bad by comparing it to Germany. It's all a huge anti-Norwegian plot.

[Wolfie]

In what way? Do you have any evidence that the Dutch and UN are in collusion to distort homicide rate statistitcs?

[WyldKard]

source please. not that i doubt you, but turnabout is fair play!

Ah ha! At last, the student thinks he can become the teacher! :)

But you are right. Fairs fair. All right, here you go

In 1991 [In the Netherlands], there were 216 completed and 2,70 attempted homicides. The rate for completed murder and manslaughter offenses were 1 per 100,000 population. The rate for attempted murer and manslaughter was 14 per 100,000

Murders were the least frequent violent victimization [in the US] -- about 6 murder victims per 100,000 persons in 1999.

Self-admitted weaknesses in my initial sources:

The first report is for the Netherlands as a whole, and is from 1991. The second is for the US, but from 1999. However, this chart seems to indicate the violent crime rate was actually HIGHER in 1991 anyhow.

So unless The Netherlands has had a *six-fold* jump in completed murders between 1991 and 1999, I say Wolfie's statement is somewhat solid.

Sorry, this was a rush job. I'm at work. If I had time, I'd have coughed up something better :)

[mlocher]

thanks for your post. i think that you are saying that i was blaming soft drugs on the high murder rate in amsterdam. 'easy drugs' simply means drugs that are easy to come by.

a group from the uk took me, as a lark, to the red light district of amsterdam. i saw plenty of soft drug use, but even more hard drug use. hard drugs may be illegal, but they are very easy to obtain in amsterdam.

at first i was sort of mad at my uk colleagues, then i realized they presented me with an eye-opening experience.

[WyldKard]

that is not what i posted. please re-read.

You are right. I did not mean to type "world". I ment to type Europe....my bad.

You, however, DID say: i don't think so. amsterdam, the capital of the netherlands, is now the murder capital of europe, crime brought about with the introduction of easy drugs.

So aside from a small typo, my original statement still stands. Prove that Amsterdam is the murder capital of Europe, and that this is all due to the introduction of easy drugs.

[WyldKard]

Uh IMHO, it shows that countries with lax drug views also have lax social(IMHO destructive) views.

Key word here being Opinion. You don't seem to possess any actual FACTS that lax drug views also have socially destructive consequences.

[mlocher]

thanks for the post. la figuero and knight hawk have stated that amsterdam has over taken london as the murder capital of europe. i was not discussing the netherlands as a whole, per se. my observation, btw, is that the netherlands have confined their drug usage to specific places (e.g. amsterdam -- i have no source) and the rest of the country is extremely safe. even more than the rest of europe, i have found the dutch to abhor violence. (except euthanasia)

[HELLRAISER II]

I'll tell you another thing, driving a car impaired is wrong period, but if I had a choice between a drunk & somebody that just burned one, i'll take the pot head everytime. Alcohol impairs your ability to drive, for sure.

[mlocher]

thanks. i have heard about the abortion boats from ireland. it stirred up quite a bit of controversy in europe and especially the uk. personally, i find it disgusting.

looks like real soon the french will be able to take a joint bus to switzerland. i find this more humorous that disgusting: no murder involved.

[Wolfie]

hard drugs may be illegal, but they are very easy to obtain in amsterdam.

Kind of like the U.S., eh?

[HELLRAISER II]

You know all drugs have side effects including the only over the counter drug, alcohol. Some impair you, some make you jittery, some just calm you down. If I had to pick one that had the least side effects it would be pot, the others all have serious side effects that alter a persons personality & motor skills.