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British Medical Journal: Natural Family Planning= Effective Birth Control Supported by Cathol Chrch
British Medical Journal/ Loyola University ^ | R.E.J. Ryder

Posted on 12/10/2001 7:49:06 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM

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To: al_c; narses; ThomasMore; Maximilian
they'd be able to catch the double ovulation.

With the symptothermal methods, this is guaranteed. The CCL has hundreds of thousands of chart histories from the last several decades, and if the findings of this new study were an issue, I would know about it from the CCL already. These findings affect NOTHING regarding the practice of the symptothermal methods of NFP. What affects it is couple motivation. So-called NFP failures are 99% NFP foibles, i.e., the couple knew darn well they were taking chances, but to save face they blame it in the method, not their practice of it. I know this from firsthand experience with couples using NFP. When directly questioned, they ALL admit it was NEVER a failure of the method.

21 posted on 07/09/2003 11:27:31 AM PDT by Polycarp (When a mother can kill her own child, what is left of the West to save?" - Mother Theresa)
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To: Maximilian
The data about fraternal twins with different conception dates was fascinating.

Fascinating indeed, but the least credible claim in the entire article. I need a lot more evidence than this Reuters report to begin to give it credence.

22 posted on 07/09/2003 11:29:32 AM PDT by Polycarp (When a mother can kill her own child, what is left of the West to save?" - Mother Theresa)
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To: Maximilian
You may know more about it than I do, but according to this article, the researchers were pretty shocked, and they said that "textbooks would need to be rewritten." This doesn't sound like "old news" to me.

I remember our instructors mentioning it during our NFP class. Hmmm ...

I would like to see a study in which 100 fertile couples start January 1st using NFP. Then count how many are pregnant by December 31st. I would bet the percentage would be quite high. And thank God for that! The one thing that I actually like about NFP is that it doesn't work, thus allowing more babies to be born into the world.

That would be an interesting study. It's been very good for me and my wife and we've been practicing NFP for well over a year. We do so for the first two reasons Brian posted above. For those that practice it just to not have kids, I second your "thank God for that" comment that the percentage would be high. God has a knack for getting His way, doesn't He? ;o)

23 posted on 07/09/2003 11:31:19 AM PDT by al_c
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To: Maximilian
I would like to see a study in which 100 fertile couples start January 1st using NFP. Then count how many are pregnant by December 31st. I would bet the percentage would be quite high. And thank God for that! The one thing that I actually like about NFP is that it doesn't work, thus allowing more babies to be born into the world.

See my post 21.

God has His reasons for programming the human physiology so that NFP DOES work, just as this British Medical Journal article proves.

I've seen those reasons in what is, in Mother Teresa's opinion, the "poorest place on earth," the slums of Port Au Prince, Haiti. When the child you conceive is guaranteed to die of disease or starvation, 1) you have a grave reason for recourse to NFP, and 2) a just God would make sure His children had an effective alternative for these grave periods when He also clearly teaches that recourse to artificial methods are intrinsically evil. I've seen a baby dying before my eyes from dehydration from dysentery. I never want to see it again. And I bristle at those who insist a Just God would not provide a reliable natural and knowable means of delaying or spacing pregnancy so that each conceived child has a better chance to live.

24 posted on 07/09/2003 11:37:20 AM PDT by Polycarp (When a mother can kill her own child, what is left of the West to save?" - Mother Theresa)
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To: Polycarp
And I bristle at those who insist a Just God would not provide a reliable natural and knowable means of delaying or spacing pregnancy so that each conceived child has a better chance to live.

So God was not just until the sympto-thermal method appeared on the scene? His justice was lacking until it was completed by this missing piece of the puzzle? And the billions of humans who lived before the Knaus and Ogino were born, they suffered under God's injustice? Perhaps Onan also should complain against God's injustice, he wouldn't have needed to spill his seed if only Tamar had owned a basal body thermometer?

You get credit at least for an entirely new view of theodicy.

25 posted on 07/09/2003 12:07:56 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; rdf
WOnderful! THanks
26 posted on 07/09/2003 1:42:03 PM PDT by Scholastic
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To: Maximilian
I put the word "success" in quotes because I do not consider it a success when a couple avoids having children.

Love it. You win this week's Chesterton Award for Catholic Irony and Understatement.

I'm very glad my parents were less "successful" and we managed to get a few more wonderful and brilliant siblings, without whom things would have been far less enjoyable. It gave a chance for the older children to learn how to administer diapers, bottles, and baby formula as well.

27 posted on 07/09/2003 1:57:51 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: Maximilian
Did you read today's article about multiple ovulations during a single month? It looks like there could be more reasons why they "fail" than just "cheating."

Actually, the sympto-thermal method would likely catch this. It would reduce "safe" days for sexual activity to a pretty small amount though. Something like 2-3 days per month, not necessarily in a row.

However, as a former practicioner of NFP, I'm more in agreement with your previous statement that, "I put the word 'success' in quotes because I do not consider it a success when a couple avoids having children."

NFP is too often used as a Catholicized enabler of the contraceptive mindset. Probably safest for all but those in dire need to avoid.

28 posted on 07/09/2003 4:16:03 PM PDT by Snuffington
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To: Polycarp
"With the symptothermal methods, this is guaranteed."

BBT = symptothermal???
29 posted on 07/09/2003 8:26:30 PM PDT by narses ("The do-it-yourself Mass is ended. Go in peace" Francis Carindal Arinze of Nigeria)
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To: Polycarp
"And I bristle at those who insist a Just God would not provide a reliable natural and knowable means of delaying or spacing pregnancy so that each conceived child has a better chance to live."

I have trouble with this comment. Innocent life is lost every day and many born will not get a "better" chance than they could have. God's Plan is not entirely subject to human analysis, He is Infinite, we are less than dust motes. I think your experience with death by dysentery (a horrid death) may have colored your view of Divine Providence.
30 posted on 07/09/2003 8:32:48 PM PDT by narses ("The do-it-yourself Mass is ended. Go in peace" Francis Carindal Arinze of Nigeria)
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To: Maximilian; Polycarp
"he warned that any use of periodic continence which was not justified by grave reasons was "a sin against the very nature of married life." "

I assume he is meaning PLANNED periodic continence here.

I can't imagine that he is condemning the continence that comes from running around all day trying to make a living; fetching and carrying your kids to a myriad activities; serving your Church in various capacities; and then being just too knackered to get romantic!!!

In my experience, kids themselves are a pretty efficient contraceptive.
31 posted on 07/10/2003 3:06:41 AM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: narses
yes
32 posted on 07/10/2003 7:33:50 AM PDT by Polycarp (When a mother can kill her own child, what is left of the West to save?" - Mother Theresa)
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To: narses
oops, no. BBT=Basal Body Temperature alone. BBT plus observations of fertility signs = Symptothermal methods.
33 posted on 07/10/2003 7:35:26 AM PDT by Polycarp (When a mother can kill her own child, what is left of the West to save?" - Mother Theresa)
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To: narses
I think your experience with death by dysentery (a horrid death) may have colored your view of Divine Providence.

On the contrary, I think my experience with both third world medical missionary work and first world NFP instruction has illuminated for me just how wrong some extreme traditionalists are when they make blanket condemnations of NFP use. Such an attitude was illustrated by an editorial on www.seattlecatholic.com several months ago, to which I responded with a letter to ed. The subsequence letters to ed there responding to my points illustrated these blanket condemnations of NFP use among extreme traditionalists, and further galvanized my opposition to their wrongheaded condemnation of NFP use, something the Roman Catholic Church declared morally licit for grave circumstances.

There's an old saying, "Don't try to be more Catholic than the Pope." I always found that saying to be annoying, but on this subject it is appropriate.

34 posted on 07/10/2003 7:36:25 AM PDT by Polycarp (When a mother can kill her own child, what is left of the West to save?" - Mother Theresa)
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To: Maximilian; narses
So God was not just until

If you grasped population demographics and agriculture based economics versus current economics and demographics, you would also grasp why the Holy Spirit guided the Church to this knowledge at this time in history. I know there is no such thing as overpopulation. But I also know there are real concrete circumstances when NFP use is morally licit, and rare circumstances where NFP use verges on a necessity (Catholics in China who will have their baby forcefully aborted.)

NFP is not immoral if used in grave circumstances. I have seen these grave circumstances first hand, both at home and abroad. That is why I bristle at those who condemn NFP use and NFP users, when such are NOT condemned by the Church, if grave circumstances for recourse to NFP exist.

35 posted on 07/10/2003 7:43:45 AM PDT by Polycarp (When a mother can kill her own child, what is left of the West to save?" - Mother Theresa)
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To: Democratic_Machiavelli
ping
36 posted on 07/10/2003 8:27:53 AM PDT by HarryDunne
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To: Polycarp
You misunderstand, I wasn't criticizing NFP, rather your view of Divine Providence. God knows when we will die, how we die is His pleasure, not ours.
37 posted on 07/10/2003 7:47:57 PM PDT by narses ("The do-it-yourself Mass is ended. Go in peace" Francis Carindal Arinze of Nigeria)
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To: Polycarp; HarryDunne
Interesting.

This would mean the Pill is ineffective as well as except as a post-conception abortion tool.

I'm guessing this new information on ovulation and hormones will not be added to any high school sex ed textbooks. Might frighten the poor teens too much.

38 posted on 07/11/2003 6:59:30 AM PDT by Democratic_Machiavelli
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
Interesting stuff. Thanks for posting it.
39 posted on 07/11/2003 7:00:02 AM PDT by Democratic_Machiavelli
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To: Democratic_Machiavelli
as well as except as

?

40 posted on 07/11/2003 7:45:08 AM PDT by HarryDunne
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