West haunted by Balkans blunder

WorldNetDaily.com ^ | MONDAY, DECEMBER 3 2001 | Don Feder

[ConsistentLibertarian]

"why did we always change our position to be anti-Serb." That's what I deny. If you're right, then we shouldn't expect the same switch in other cases not involving Serbs. But when you look at the US and international response to other cases where a semi-autonomous state in a federated system is claiming a right to self-determination, you get the same assymmetry: There tends to be greater support for self-determination for the individual states than there is for a right to self-determination for sub-regions of those states.

[ConsistentLibertarian]

My spelling is really bad. Usually my grammar is pretty good. When I don't know, I ask, and when I get something wrong I'm happy to find out because it means I have a chance to learn something. Always a good day when one can learn something new. Don't you think?

[ConsistentLibertarian]

I'm going to have to ask your help with those questions. Anyone who wants to make inferences about Serbs in general based on what happened in Bosnia is making a bad inference. People are people. They buttons and wiring are pretty much the same everywhere. But there's no contest between the propaganda that was fed to Serbs inside Serbia during the 90's and what was available from western sources. Did you read the Serbian Ministry of Information web site during the bombing campaign and compare that with, say, the BBC world news? For all its follies, the BBC published many reports putting NATO action in a bad light. Lots and lots of details about civilian casualties, for example. It's a shock to people inside Serbia to find out, now, what really happened inside Kosovo. So while one wouldn't want to be niave about consuming news from any source, there was a far greater degree of state control over media in the Socialist Republic of Serbia than there is in the west, and Malosovitch used that control to political advantage.

[ConsistentLibertarian]

Your post is very long and I'm sorry if I don't have time now to read it as carefully as I should. It deserves a good read. There seemed to be a concerted effort to pin the 1995 market shelling on the Serbs in Bosnia. I've seen reports that the US didn't have an open mind going into the investigation. It might have been a case where there's "massacre" fatigue, and a government feels it has lots of evidence about what's going on and just needs one "biggie" to build up public support for intervention. Sort of a "Gulf of Tonkin" type situation. I don't know. The one example I think is most telling is Srebenecia, because 200 Dutch peacekeepers were _there_, on site, and part of it has been filmed, and they've got the mass grave site and they've got people doing forensics on the ground.

[F-117A]

That's an explanation for what happened. It doesn't excuse it.

I agree, if the UN declares a "safe area" it should not permit armed agression from that area!

[Voronin]

If only it were so clear. No-one who wants to even have a vague understanding of what was going on refers to a single information source. The point I made about the Bosnian Serb Army's daily reports being fairly accurate still stands. Infact, I never read the Serbian MUP's reports, but also have sources on the ground.

If you want to look in to a big reason of why the 'Serbs were in denial', look no further than the Western Media (and the BBC). From the very early days, the Serbs were singled out as the 'aggessors' and a war of aggression rather than a civil war. The vast majority of war crimes reported said the Serbs were to blame.

When the bus full of children which got shot up in 1992 when trying to leave Sarajevo was reported in the 'Media', it was stated that there were only Bosnian Moslem children aboard. That was complete mis/dis-information - there were Serb children there too.

Whilst the conflict was continuing in Croatia, all media reports to the west continued to be transmitted via Zagreb where Tudjman allies filtered out reports of crimes against the Serb population.

The fact that the Serbs were so early on demonized in the Media made them only more resistant to the so called truth that the Western Media published. Throughout the whole of the 1990s, it was possible for the Serbs to get outside information as I have personally witnessed and experienced at a number of times. I watched turkish TV in Belgrade, I listened to the BBC World Service in the countryside and I saw RAI UNO without any interference by the authorities.

Senoir political leaders in the West sought to keep the picture 'simple' which is why the British officials ordered the British Army to keep silent once they had discovered that the supposedly 'good' Croats had been murdering and burning Moslems civilians in central Bosnia in mid-1993. Fortunately the BA ignored them and submitted their video tapes directly to the international Media.

As to events in Kosovo, how about 'Potkova', the supposed Serbian master plan to ethnically cleanse all the albanians out of Kosovo? The story came straight from the German Intelligence Services (Potkovka is Serbian, Potkova is Croatian). How about the story of hundreds of bodies being burned in the Trepca furnaces, despite a thorough investigation by specially equipped French experts and round the clock surveillance of non-existant heat emissions by NATO?

Milosevic did not need to have a 'strong influence' over the Media as the Serbs had already been alienate by years of demonization (the BBC just happens to be a lot more subtle about it). Most people I know from the region believed government news reports as much as foreign news reports, i.e. very little, but they clearly understood that they were being directly threatend by NATO. Some of the soldiers who came back from the front talked about what happened and this information made its way around. The Serbs were not cut off from the information, but rather subjected to too much conflicting (and obscene) reporting. After all, when someone writes about the United States, would you be more inclined to agree if the author was a US citizen, or a citizen of France?

How about Roy Gutman of Newsweek who specifically made the allegations that the Serbs were running the equivalent of Nazi death camps? Yes there were camps and nasty things happened but no-one ever publicised the Croat and Bosnian Moslem camps of which there were plenty.

Have you noticed how the 'free and fair' media in the West only highlighted reports of 'Serbian atrocities' from NGO reports but completely ignored those same NGO's when they levelled equivalent accusations at the other parties?

Did you follow up the 'systematic rape' stories that we were bombarded with? It's worth reading the Dame Anne-Warburton Commission's report on this supposed reality and actually trying to find solid evidence to back up such proposerous claims. It didn't matter because the stories were enough for rape to be included as a war crime for the very first time. Why wasn't this done before with regards Rwanda? The story served its purpose in laying the vast majority of 'guilt' on the Serbs.

It also helps to know that the Serbs were completely useless at propaganda. They kept on saying, 'oh everyone will know what is really going on' and thus did very little. Again, the West deliberately sabotaged any effort by the Serbs to put their side across, re the hiring of the PR firm Ian Greer Associates in the UK which the British government 'leaned on' to close its account with the government of the Republic of Yugoslavia. OK, so that may not be a bad thing (one would think), but the Croats and the Bosnian Molsems had Ruder-Finn and Hill&Knowleton working for them throughout the war (do you have their quotes on hand Pericles?). Do you remember the debunked Gulf War II 'Kuwait baby incubator' horror story where a young nurse (who turned out to be the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to Washington) testified before Congress just shortly before the vital vote on going to war, that she saw Iraqi soldiers rip Kuwaiti babies from their incubators and left them to die on the floor? A Rudjer-Finn product inc.

Do you remeber the famous photo of the Bosnian Moslem woman with her 'rape baby' that was flashed around the world? It turned out that it was not possible because the child was too old to have been concieve during the conflict. That was a Hill&Knowlton production, but the counter argument is that the 'end justifies the means', or does it?

The British government also banned the Belgrade genocide museum from coming to Great Britain which would have 'educated' some as to how un black and white the current conflict was.

As for the BBC, I've seen how they operate. They hosted an 'open discussion program on Bosnia' or something similar and invite a few 'experts' who tend to be extremely opinionated and emotionally involved (and that is excluding those from the region) and the audience that 'votes' has very little input (I went to one of these). Each part of the debate is split up with short 'explanatory' video sequences which are not 'objective' in what they show.

Detailed information has been submitted to orgnizations like the BBC on crimes against the Serbs but they are either 'lost in the post' or never see the light of day.

It's a lot, a lot more complicated. I can reccommend that you look at the bookmarks of all the regular Balkans posters (and ignore the hysterics) as a lot of interesting information is to be found there.

I hope I've raised a few interesting point for you to mull over.

Regs,

VRN

[vooch]

what happened at Srebrenica ?

The 28th BiH Mujhadeen Division under the infamous Nasir Oric undertook a fighting retreat in which the outnumbered BSA Army failed in its attempt to annhilate the unit.

After the area was liberated from Nasir Oric's paramiltary Mujhadeen.......UN forensic scientists uncovered some 2,500 bodies near the loyalist villages where Oric sent his execution squads.

The UN estimated that Nasir's execution sqauds murdered some 3,200 villagers in & around Srebrenica

It is all in the ICTY transcripts if one cares to read them carefully.

[vooch]

was a far greater degree of state control over media in the Socialist Republic of Serbia than there is in the west

really now ?

pray give us some data points for that one.........

[ConsistentLibertarian]

It's a consequence of a free market and the first amendment. In the west the media can go wild over a story that a sitting President had an affair and lied about it. That sort of reporting isn't available from State run media on the Socialist Republic of Serbia.

[ConsistentLibertarian]

Actually, the Dutch were made to personally sort male non-combattants from women and children, and the men were led away, later to appear in mass graves. The Dutch sent a jeep to follow to observe and Maladich had them stopped and stripped naked. It's viewed as an embarassment/disgrace to the Dutch. There was a public inquiry due to the subsequent public outrage. Statements agains interest have a kind of probity, don't you think?

[F-117A]

In the west the media can go wild over a story that a sitting President had an affair and lied about it.

Is that your perception or you condemning the press for failing to concentrate on the obstruction of justice rather than SEX?

[vooch]

It's a consequence of a free market and the first amendment. In the west the media can go wild over a story that a sitting President had an affair and lied about it. That sort of reporting isn't available from State run media on the Socialist Republic of Serbia

really now ?
you obviously haven't read anything that appeared in Yugoslav/Serbian media from 1991 to 1999. If anything the Yugoslav mainstream media was much more vibrant and open than our very own media is in wartime.

BTW, I've been a "card carrying" registered libertarian since 1978.......Mr. Consistent.

[vooch]

Actually, the Dutch were made to personally sort male non-combattants from women and children, and the men were led away, later to appear in mass graves

Actually you have fallen for classic mis-information of the most obvious sort. The hard facts

In the case you are citing Combatants were seperated from non-combatants after the town was liberated. The roughly 200 Combatants who thereupon became POW's were treated according to Geneva convention. A few months later these POW's were exchanged via a ICRC prisoner exchange.

And yes, after 6 years of the most intensive UN forensic investigation know in man's history, some bodies of those 28th BiH Mujhadeen Division were found...... something like 70 bodies in total have been found which were from Basir Oric's unit .......as I stated, the overstretched BSA was unsucessful in annhilating the 28th as it retreated towards Tuzla in a chaotic mass.

What the UN forensic scientists DID find were some 1,200 bodies of people who were apparantly murdered by Nasir Oric's execution squads from 1993-1995

In addition to the 70 BiH paramilitaries ID'd, there are some additional 600 bodies which the UN forensics teams found which they believe are BiH paramilitaries which were killed in a "a fair fight"......at least this is what the UN forensic experts presented in their ICTY testimony.

Joan, Leonora when you get the time could u pluz post the relevant hotlinks for our dear collegue Mr. Consistent ? thanks.

[vooch]

some links for Mr. Consistent to ponder given his defense of x42's reckless meddling:

Albright's Ally Nasir Oric likes 'em young (my title)
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3a647b500c50.htm

Bosnian finally gets Iranian Revolutionary Guards removed (2001)
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3bea93f43309.htm

Canadian Soldier says"NATO sleeping with the enemy" in Balkans
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3b87e065149b.htm

Clinton's Allies in Bosnia - The 7th Mujahedeen Brigade
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3b98db631779.htm

Croat admittance to ethnic slaughter policy
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3c055ea53b2e.htm

Croatians armed by Clinton murder Civilians
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3b76e0085863.htm

DER SPIEGEL: DOUBLE GAME OF THE AMERICANS
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3b66b77a751c.htm

Detailed Body Count of Clinton's Kosovo War
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a39fa5c094b29.htm

Ethnic guerrillas target Albanians (WP 12Marc01)
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3aad074636b7.htm

Fikret Abdic legally elected President of BiH
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3b1f0cd017e5.htm

Fort Leavenworth Report on Bosnian Civil War - 1995
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3b7900a23027.htm

Genocide or Veracicide: Will NATO's Lying Ever Stop?
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3b5d25247f77.htm

If we can try Milosevic , why not try Clinton ?
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3b7fee19270b.htm

Kosovo - KLA General Ceku killed 225 civilians in 1991, trained by NATO
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a38a9d76f6146.htm

Kosovo - Why does Kfor support KLA killer Remi ?
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a38a336d53291.htm

LOOSE CANNON: THE NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR DEMOCRACY
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3b8089e155a0.htm

Nasir Oric goes hunting around Srebenica
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3a622d9a4135.htm

NPR on its use of Disinformation in Reporting on Yugoslavia
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3b85c1dc4179.htm

Nuremberg Lawyer Calls Clinton's War a "Supreme Crime"
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3a880edf01a4.htm

Soros to "invest" in Yugo w/ US taxpayer funds & guarantees.
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3b5acc905662.htm

The Balkans: Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow [Ben Works Speech Delivered at Toronto, Ontario]
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3b2789504d81.htm

The Dangerous Gap: A Legacy Of The Clinton Era< br> http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3b0af0c32e78.htm

The Real Genocide in Yugoslavia: "Independent" Croatia of 1941 Revisited
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a38ff8b7c40c4.htm

The Sixties Go to War: From the radicalism of the '60s to the interventionism liberals' of the '90s
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3b8f27696c97.htm

U.N. police organize White Slavery in BiH according to former UN cop
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3b2f68783714.htm

U.S. Army 'Psyops' Specialists worked for CNN
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a38bc140a71dd.htm

UN Commander "Bosnians..caught red-handed" using civilains
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3a92dfcc7bdd.htm

UN Soldier "Bosnians murdered their own people for PR"
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3a8d701908d0.htm

[Balto_Boy]

I was quoting from the Republican Policy Committee in a report arguing against US involvement. One would think that, if anything, they would have understated, rather than overstated, the case for US involvement.

Whether it was understated would depend on how severe they thought the violence was at the time. That Milosevic dealt with the situation he inherited brutally may well be true. However, I don't see how it changes the fact that the fighting going on long before Milo took over, or that it wasn't as one-sided as now portrayed.

[Hoplite]

Discussing Srebrenica with Vooch is like discussing Nicole with OJ.

Just thought you'd like to know.

[vooch]

Wasn't Tudjman pretty much a Nazi thug?

indeed......and Clinton's Humanitarian Warriors supplied, funded, promoted, and train his zenophobic legions......even to the sureal experience of inviting him to speak at the opening on the Holocaust Museum.

Face it, x42 besmirched our country by aiding and abeting Bosnian & KLA mujhadeen as well as neo-Nazi people like Tudjman. Without x42's support, Tudjman would have been a ranting retired old general scribbling his hate missives in some obscure Ustashe revival magazine published in Argentina

[vooch]

yup, Hoplite despite the overwhelming Forensic evidence regarding the 28th BiH Mujhadeen division activities in and around Srebrenica......you still refuse to accept the simple reality.

[Hoplite]

Your reality isn't.

[joan]

And we learn not a single name from that article. No autopsy report, no age, no details if a person was a fighter or civilian...