FBI agents rebel over new powers

London Observer ^ | Sunday December 2, 2001 | Ed Vulliamy in New York

[FreeReign]

...there is a place for undercover operations. Probable cause strictly construed under duly issued warrant by competent independent judicial authority should be the standard.

Good!

Then do you feel that an undercover operation that met the above requirements would be OK inside a religious organization?

[LiberteeBell]

You are correct. However, according to this (scroll about half way down the page) there is still some question as to him (and some of the others) being in this country illegally. My point is that I think it is deplorable that there is little to no oversight regarding immigration, particularly of the illegal variety.

Do you honestly not see this as a very big part of the terrorist problem?

[wcbtinman]

I just love that phrase "close the borders.".....

Tell you what Nick. I'm willing to give some vacation time in order to stand guard at some post on the border with a rifle.

How about you?

[MindBender26]

Nothing of the kind. You and the rest of the whacko tin hat crowd have been implying that the FBI is going to get all of us for years. If you can't realize that if they were going to to it, they would have done it by now, you should not be allowed out in traffic.

[DAGO]

"Ashcroft and FBI Director Muller sneaked through unconstitutional provisons in the "Patriot Act" stripping US citizens of many fundamental rights and civil liberties without any proper safeguards or reviews. These provisions also permit the CIA to monitor US citzens in the US and to gain access to secret Federal grand jury testimony."

BUMP!

[A. Pole]

I am also confident our new President will seek policy changes during his last year of his second term. He can by executive order return some of those things to where they were before he began the terrorist hunt.

But if President is ALLOWED to rule by decrees (the real name for "executive orders") it will signify the transformation of the federal republic into a presidential republic. Then with the burden of Empire, president will evolve into an emperor and his decrees will become royal edicts. Even if this President revokes some of his statues, his successor with the same or greater ease will put them back and will add more.

Now you can understand how the Roman Republic evolved into a monarchy.

[MindBender26]

If the FBI was so intent on getting you

I challenge you to either cite where OKCSubmariner said "the FBI was intent on getting" him, or admit you are lying.

If you could read without getting your finger prints all over the screen, you would notice I said "IF the FBI, etc." I did not say that he said "the FBI was intent on getting him."

If you were older than a juvenile 12, or less than a senile 75, you would know not to accuse someone of lying, especially when you don't even have your facts straight.... of course, facts have never meant much to you nutty, angry old men.....

[Nick Danger]

all this mindless crap, such as showing an ID four times on a two-segment flight as if you don't already have to go through an X-Ray machine, metal detector, and at least in some airports, explosive residue "sniffing" machines.

I don't think of those things as security measures. I think that stuff is eyewash, a big Public Affairs stunt to make Aunt Bea think that the Fedrel Gubment is fightin' crime. You and I both know that while the passengers are being poked and prodded for show, Mustafa al-Jihad and the rest of the janitorial staff are slipping box cutters under the seats.

I guess because I don't see that stuff as serious security, I've never really though about it as an actual law enforcement excess. To me it just looks like a bunch of rent-a-cops with an attitude. Maybe after they get turned into actual federal employees, they'll start sleeping on the job more.

I thought you were talking more about things like Carnivore, or Secret Courts With Secret Evidence, or holding people as "material witnesses" for long periods of time without charging them with anything. That stuff is positively scary. On the other hand, it looks like they are reserving those measures for, umm, you know, them. I'm willing to hold my nose on that for a while. Measures like these have been seen before in the United States, and they indeed went away after the wartime threat had passed.

[Plummz]

You . . . have been implying that the FBI is going to get all of us for years.

Several on this forum have pointed out flagrant and repeated violations of the law and the Constitution by FBI agents and directors, much to your chagrin apparently. I note that you don't cite any of said alleged implications here . . .

[Plummz]

I said "IF the FBI, etc." I did not say that he said "the FBI was intent on getting him."

This seems to be admission that your false implications and accusations posted to this thread are misdirecting irrelevant as well. Thanks for your candor in this matter.

As for your tiresome and pointless ad hominem attacks regarding physical and mental fitness, I will be glad to lay the smack down on you in both a foot race and IQ test in the venue of your choice, provided you pony up travel and lodging.

Best,

[MindBender26]

Stop using big words because you think they make you seem important. Your whacko ideas and attacks on others have sent you to the graveyard of beliefs held only by tired, old, angry, goofy men long ago.

FR is a place for reasonable, sane people, not people who like to play mind games. Knock it off or we will report you to Abuse Central. They understand FR is not for the whackos. There is a war on, and we don't need the nut jobs cluttering up bandwidth.

[Plummz]

In retrospect, I suppose "physical fitness" should read "age" or "physical age," or somesuch.

[Plummz]

FR is a place for reasonable, sane people, not people who like to play mind games.

If you say so, "Mindbender." Reasonable and sane people argue facts -- they don't call names.

[Plummz]

PS -- I am sincerely sorry if the "big words" confuse you. (I understand "big words" aren't the currency of the realm in the teevee "news" biz.) In general, it's best if people confused by the discussion OKCSubmariner's threads stay off them, as their presence and the attendant conflict it brings cause unnecessary acrimony on Mr. Robinson's forum.

[worldviewer tom]

I think you've nailed it. Those who want to go along with the Constitutional abuses would probably be screaming if this were being attempted by someone like hillary.