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Conservationists Buy Utah Allotment (250,000 acres of Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument)
FindLaw Legal News ^ | 11-28-01

Posted on 11/28/2001 2:12:30 PM PST by Sandy

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To: Cuttnhorse
I don't think I paid anything for backpacking in Grand Staircase-Escalante. This was 2-3 years ago -- my hikes there this year were all day hikes as I was recovering from some foot surgery and didn't want to carry the weight. I remember paying something like $10 for a backpack overnight in Grand Gulch in SE Utah. Well worth it.

I buy the Golden Eagle national park pass every year for $50 and the equivalent pass for my state's state parks (also $50).

I haven't done any trail maintenance work myself though I've thought of it. I've seen Sierra Clubbers doing trail maintenance (virtually the only thing that rabid group does that I agree with). I checked into it once. They basically pay a substantial fee for the privilege of joining the work effort and put in a week of their own time doing hard labor.

I like to have access to scenic lands. That is why I favor public ownership of them. I bet I wouldn't have access to them if they were in private hands or if I did it would be a Gatlinburg or Las Vegas kind of experience. I remember what a treasure Hilton Head Island in SC was before the developer "improved" it and made access to the beach difficult for those who didn't buy property there.

Grazing cattle on public lands for less than what grazing rights go for on the open market would basically be a subsidy for the ranchers. I respect the ranchers, but they need to compete in this economy like everyone else.

21 posted on 11/29/2001 10:59:37 AM PST by rustbucket
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To: rustbucket
Thanks for injecting some reason into this otherwise foolish debate, rustbucket.

Folks at FR sometimes have such a knee-jerk reaction against the green crowd that they fail to recognize that TRUE conservatives do just that -- conserve.

Bottom line -- if the private landowner wants to voluntarily relinquish one of his property rights to a conservation organization (which is NOT necessarily the same thing as an environmental organization), then he is free to do so.

Voluntary, nongovernmental, nonbureaucratic land conservation for future generations -- how can anyone who calls themselves a conservative object to that?

22 posted on 11/29/2001 11:27:33 AM PST by JamesinGA
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To: rustbucket; farmfriend
Grazing cattle on public lands for less than what grazing rights go for on the open market would basically be a subsidy for the ranchers. I respect the ranchers, but they need to compete in this economy like everyone else.

I would have be a $1,000 that this statement was coming...only a matter of when. To say that public grazing land is somehow equal to grazing on private, usually irrigated land, is another of the BIG myths thrown up at ranchers by people who really are just parroting what they hear.

I charge the rancher who is presently leasing my land a heck of a lot more than he pays for public grazing...and with good reason. My pastures are fertilized and irrigated, well-fenced, with corrals and cattle-handling facilities on site. To somehow say that public land that may only carry 3 or 4 cow-calf pairs per acre for 4 or 5 months compares to land that will carry 15 pairs per acre for 6 or 7 months is somehow giving a break to public land grazers is silly. Plus, in evaluating public lands leases, the critics always seem to overlook the MANDATORY improvements that are required and stipulated each year when the rancher submits a grazing management plan.

When I was cowboying in Nevada I spent a heck of a lot of my time fixing fences, and building fences working on water troughs and springs, cutting fence posts, doing a lot of riding just to keep the cows on one side of some imaginary line that a BLM or USFS bureaucrat drew on a map in the head office. The BLM or USFS does very little allotment improvement...most BLM and USFS range conservation workers can't even read a brand. This cost my boss, the owner money and when you add up all the costs including the fact that calves don't gain as much on public land grazing, the costs are very close.

Most people who stick their noses into the public lands debate have never spent any time on the back of a cowhorse, never staked a mining claim, or never had a timber permit. For some reason because people go for a hike now and then in the woods they are experts in all things related to range and forest management. Try living the life for awhile...try bringing home a paycheck from a natural resource industry then tell me about mismanagement and land abuse and ranch welfare.

Another little-advertised fact is that the condition of grazing range lands in the west are in very good shape. Over 80% are in good to excellent condition with some in poor and some improving. This is after some horrible droughts in the west.

You got me going now...ALSO, please just think a moment and try to imagine what advantage a rancher has from "overgrazing" and abusing his allotment? Cows are protein converters, they convert grass protein into meat protein and the typical cow-calf producer is paid by the weight of the calves he sells in the Fall. If he abuses his allotment I promise you that his wiening weights will drop and he'll be out of business in a few years. Ranchers can not continuously bring home 550-600 lb calves year after year and abuse their range.

This debate will go on for a long time, my biggest complaint is the real stakeholders, the stewards of the land are not being allowed a place at the debate table.

23 posted on 11/29/2001 3:53:14 PM PST by Cuttnhorse
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To: JamesinGA
I take it you are not from the west James...judging by your screen name?

I'm always amazed how some people are able to see complex issues so clearly...it's probably because they have so much experience to draw from.
I truly envy your wisdom and obvious intelligence.

24 posted on 11/29/2001 3:59:17 PM PST by Cuttnhorse
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To: Sandy
bump
25 posted on 11/29/2001 4:02:09 PM PST by Cuttnhorse
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To: Cuttnhorse
Ok, some one needs to explain to me how a few head of cattle can damage the land. Didn't this land evolve with more than a few head of buffalo on it? I would think that the land needs the grazing just like the forest needs fire. There was an article on FR about this not long ago. Looking.
26 posted on 11/29/2001 4:07:37 PM PST by farmfriend
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To: farmfriend
BTTT
27 posted on 11/29/2001 4:10:29 PM PST by shotabug
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To: rustbucket
I like to have access to scenic lands. That is why I favor public ownership of them.

Do you want to take my land as well? How much is enough? Should the whole country become a national park, reserved for hikers only?

28 posted on 11/29/2001 4:16:27 PM PST by B Knotts
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To: farmfriend
Besides, cattle are a lot prettier to look at than a bunch of hikers. :-)
29 posted on 11/29/2001 4:17:12 PM PST by B Knotts
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To: farmfriend
Cattle on range lands do not cause damage if managed properly. I would agree that grazers should do a better job at keeping cattle out of riparian areas and as ranchers are becoming better stewards they are working on improving riparian habitat. I repeat, it does the cattle grazer no good to wreck his allotment, either the riparian areas or the upland areas.
30 posted on 11/29/2001 4:23:09 PM PST by Cuttnhorse
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To: B Knotts
I'm with you...especially my Black Angus girls.
31 posted on 11/29/2001 4:23:59 PM PST by Cuttnhorse
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To: Cuttnhorse
Yep. We have a few people in the area who raise Black Angus. They sure are beautiful animals.

I'm just a small time dairy goat breeder, myself. Goats work better when you only have 5 acres.

32 posted on 11/29/2001 4:27:36 PM PST by B Knotts
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To: Cuttnhorse
I just get kinda burned up about this stuff, because I have yet to see a cow throw McDonald's wrappers and beer cans on the land.

In my opinion, recreational use is much more damaging than grazing, in the real world.

33 posted on 11/29/2001 4:31:00 PM PST by B Knotts
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To: Cuttnhorse
Cattle on range lands do not cause damage if managed properly.

You and I know that. Wish we could convince the enviro's. They have never explained how the buffalo didn't damage the land when they were as thick as flies but someone running a few head are made out to damage it irreprably.

34 posted on 11/29/2001 4:38:41 PM PST by farmfriend
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To: B Knotts
Do you want to take my land as well?

I don't know. Where's your land?

35 posted on 11/29/2001 5:21:51 PM PST by rustbucket
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To: rustbucket
Thanks for confirming my fears.
36 posted on 11/29/2001 5:56:02 PM PST by B Knotts
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To: Cuttnhorse
Try bringing home a paycheck from a natural resource industry then tell me about mismanagement and land abuse and ranch welfare

Been there, done that for 36 years now. Oil company though, not a ranch. I have no problem with responsible ranchers. Our goals are probably more similar than you realize -- we both favor responsible land management and minimum impact on the environment. My Dad grew up on a ranch and taught me to love the land.

37 posted on 11/29/2001 6:08:02 PM PST by rustbucket
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To: B Knotts
You are probably aware that goats are quite the rage now for controlling noxious weeds in the west. We have friends that have a large herd of goats and they lease them to the Feds and private land owners for grazing. Seems the little guys will selectively munch on leafy spurge and spotted knapweed, two noxious species that are overwhelming open range lands, especially in Montana, Wyoming and eastern Idaho.
My friends sold their cows and got totally into goats and tell me they are actually making money for a change.
Cheers
38 posted on 11/30/2001 1:21:24 AM PST by Cuttnhorse
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To: Cuttnhorse
Yes! Goats are being used out here in Oregon, too. They're a pretty good method of brush control. If I ever get tired of the dairy goat thing, I might go that route.
39 posted on 11/30/2001 4:04:04 AM PST by B Knotts
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