“Attack on America” Not to Be Linked to End-time Bible Prophecy!

The Preterist Homepage ^ | Unknown | Ken Davies

[RaceBannon]

He's wrong.

[Khepera]

bimp

[out_of_control]

Nope... He's right on. The pessi-millenial crowd, i.e. Pre-millennial have got Matt. 24, Lk. 21, Mk. 13 and Revelation all wrong. The events described therein are tied to "this generation" and to the "armies surrounding Jerusalem" which occurred with the Jewish War 66-70 AD, and the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD.

The Kingdom of God is growing into a great mountain as Daniel 2 says, "44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces."

[John H K]

I've never understood why there aren't more Christian types arguing that worrying about whether this is the end times are not is a complete waste of time...

If you're living your life any differently because you think the end times are upon us...isn't there something wrong with that? Just keep your nose clean, lead a good life, help others, and if the end comes, the end comes.

Its almost as if people are afraid that they can't get anyone interested in Christianity unless the end of the world is next year.

The whole apocalpyic obsession band the popularity of "Left Behind" and stuff like that strikes me as the Christian equivalent of pornography...it's a fantasy...people are frustrated that there is no objective, real-world evidence there is a God or that Christianity is the correct religion that they can throw in the face of agnostics, atheists, casual religion types, non-Christians, etc; they're frustrated that the world isn't behaving like the Old Testament with bad guys getting struck down and good guys rewarded and signs from God every few weeks.

It's a fantasy to see their smug non-churchgoing neighbor across the street with his nicer house and big boat and better car freaking out when the trumpets start sounding and the 7 lambs float through the sky getting trampled by horses or whatever and then have his house swallowed up by a fissure in the ground, so they can gloat over his demise and do "I TOLD you so!" to all those dumb people who didn't believe in the apocalpyse...just like Y2K.

And an additional problem is that apocalpytic stuff turns the end-times obsessed Christians into outright liars...violating a commandment can't be good. You see the Revelation nuts talking about the "recent rise in earthquakes, storms, etc" when there's been no increase in earthquakes at all (for example, this year, believe it or not, so far we've had a slightly BELOW normal number of large -Magnitude 7 or higher - earthquakes in the world.

[He Rides A White Horse]

Unfortunately, their popular, gloom-and-doom, and “it’s-inevitable” message .

Well, it is inevitable...the trick is determining when "now" is.

[aquawrench]

The gates of hell will prevail against hal lindsey's church, not God's.

[He Rides A White Horse]

You see the Revelation nuts talking about the "recent rise in earthquakes, storms, etc" when there's been no increase in earthquakes at all

The primary message in Revelation is to not be sleeping when the master comes home.

[Gimlet]

I agree. There is nothing that need to concern the righteous. We cannot know when the end will come. We can only try to be ready for when it comes. For it comes for all of us sooner or later however much we want to pretend it does not. We are all unworthy.

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

The European Union has a single Currency they have or will have an Army. They could be a revived form of Rome no? When will it happen! When will it happen! No man shall no the hour or day of christ's return. I heard on TBN someone say the 200 Million man Army from the east will be China. They reasoned since the chinese abort the baby girls they saw no other purpose for the chinese men.

That is the point. The Bible said it would happen in the Apostles generation and it alreadt has!

[out_of_control]

Why I believe the Great Tribulation has already happened in the past.

1) See the relevant passages, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21

2) Jesus gave an approximate date for the great tribulation when he said, "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place (Matt. 24:34). This generation means the people living at that time--they would not pass away before the things He prophesied took place. Some say that "generation" means "race", and read the verse to say, this Jewish race will not pass away, etc. But the word "generation" never means race in the bible. It always means contemporaries. Thus, the events of Matt. 24 took place within the lifetime of the generation living when Jesus spoke. Indeed, Jesus promised in Matt. 23:36-38 that this generation of Israel was about to be judged for rejecting God's Son.

3) The Temple was destroyed just as prophesied in Matt. 24:1-3 in AD 70.

4) The seven signs of the end are signs, not of the end of the world, but the end of the age--that is, the end of the Temple, and sacrificial system and the end of Israel as the covenant nation. The signs mark the period between Christ's resurrection and the Temple's destruction in AD 70: False Messiahs, v. 5 Wars, v. 6-7a, Natural disasters 7b-8, Persecution, v. 9, apostasy, v. 10-13, worldwide evangelization v. 14, and the abomination of desolation. These things all happened during that period as Christ prophesied, even the evangelization of the nations. Pausl said, in Col. 1:5-6, "the gospel which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing..." he said in v. 23 that it "was proclaimed in all creation under heaven." He said in Rom. 1:8 that "your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world" and in 10:18 that the voice of gospel preachers "has gone out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." The abomination of desolation was prophesied by Daniel in 9:26-27 and it refered to the coming of armies to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple. See Luke 21:20-22. It was the armed invasion of Jerusalem. The armies came in A.D. 66. When the Edomites came as well, in 68, they surrounded the city with 20,000 men. At that time, Josephus wrote, "there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continual lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would gues that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming." The Edomites broke through the wall of the city and in the Temple slaughtered 8,500 people, by slitting their thoats. They rushed through the streets murdering everyone they met, including the high priest. cf. Lk. 21:23-24.

5) Matt. 24:19-21 says, "there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, no ever shall." Luke 21:23-24 says, Jerusalem will be trampled unde foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Both indicate that the tribulation doesn't take place at the end of history but in the middle. Josephus said of that time, that "the day-time was spent in the shedding of blood, and the night in fear... it was common to see cities filled with dead bodies."

6) When Jesus speaks of the coming on the clouds it is not a reference to the Second Coming, but a reference to his coming in judgment on Jerusaelm and the Temple, because of Israel's rejection of the Messiah.

7) When He speaks of the cataclysmic events in the heavenlies it is a reference to the shaking and collapsing of the nation(s), not to literal changes in the sky. The picture is one of de-creation, when the stars fall, etc. The bible repeatedly uses this poetic language to speak of the judgment upon nations see Isaiah 13:9-10 (a ref. to the fall of Babylon); Isaiah 34:4 (the fall of Edom); Amos 8:9 (the fall of Samaria); Ezekiel 32:7-8, (the fall of Egypt).

However, having said that the Jewish Historian, Josephus spoke of an event during the fall of Jerusalem, that may combine both the literal and the figurative understanding of this reference. He wrote, "Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one-and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner court of the temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."

[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

Amen Brother!

[Fithal the Wise]

Clearly, the many prophesies within the Mt 24 Lk 32 and Mk 13 discourse cannot be be regarded as being fulfilled during the time of the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. The context demands that "this generation" refers to the generation that sees these things.

[elephantlips]

You touch upon some interesting points in you tirade against Christians. Yes, Christians who spend their time worrying that this is the "big one," are out of line with the Bible which tells Christians to live their lives normally, going about their business. Also, any Christian who would look at their rich un-saved neighbors being "swallowed up in a fissure" and say, "I told you so," are way out of line. However, to rail on Christians because of their beliefs is wrong and is on you. Christians who believe in an after-life are okay no matter what happens. People who do not believe in God and an after-life have only a 50/50 chance of being right and they had better hope they aren't wrong.

[out_of_control]

The tribulation, acc. to Scripture was an event that preceded the giving of the kingdom to another nation, namely the church (Rev. 11). There have been 'anti-Christs' throughout history, but there is no one anti-Christ as Hal Lindsey, et al have been teaching.

BTW, Lindsey says that the modern statehood of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy that has ushered in teh last days and that the end should come a generation (40 years) from that time. 40 years has come and gone. So, he has had to shift his thinking and now he's saying its 40 years from the time the Israeli's captured Jerusalem in 1967. Although I hear he is now even fudging on that, since we are drawing closer to 2007.

Keep in mind that Revelation must be interpreted by the biblical imagery therein, not by the newspaper. For ex. the coming on the clouds... or the left behind. Note who was left in Noah's judgment... it was Noah and his family. The ones taken were the ones taken in the flood. The righteous are left, the wicked are taken, just the opposite of rapture theology.

Look, this is a long and involved subject, but I suggest you get hold of a couple of books. A Second Look at the Second Coming by T.L. Frazier and Paradise Restored by David Chilton. They are excellent resources that I believe you will find scripturally sound.

[out_of_control]

No, it is not so clear as you say. Just the opposite. "This generation" is referring to the generation He was speaking to. That is very clear!

[mad_as_he$$]

You make the most sense I've seen in awhile on this subject. Thank you.

However, Christians should be reminded that Christianity has killed at least as many people in the name of religion as any other religion on earth. This makes all formal religions suspect to me.

IMHO mankind will never be happy until the last priest is strangled with the guts of the last lawyer by the last politician who is shot dead by the FBI responding to a tax evasion enforcement call.

Flame on....

[RnMomof7]

ping..