Posted on 11/09/2001 12:18:53 PM PST by Romulus
The Islamic fundamentalists are happy to die for their faith. The problem is, they want everyone else to die for their faith too.
While I'm more than happy to let people die for their faith, I'm not willing to die for someone else's faith, nor do I want them to die for mine.
When the moment of truth is upon me I pray I have the courage to rise to the challenge and know with confidence that I have chosen the right path.
That moment will not be upon me until I have exhausted all means available to return my enemy to dust.
GW and I are equals. That doesn't make me the president.
And you don't believe it when the scriptures say that "we shall be like Him" at that time. Fine.
I am like my mother. That doesn't make me female. I am also like my father. That doesn't make me my father. Since God is spirit, and we will be spirit, we will be like Him.
If the scriptures really were as complete as you say they are, there would be no disagreements as to how it should be interpreted.
Your statement is a non sequitur. And deny, if you wish, that Mormonism is not sectarian. They are always fighting and splitting, especially when it comes to polygamy.
We will be spirit? I assume that when I die, the conscious part of me that will continue to exist will be a spirit. If I'm still a spirit after the resurrection, then what's the point of a resurrection? Romans 6:5 (and 8:11 and 1st Corinthians 6:14 and practically all of 1st Corinthians 15) says our resurrection will be like Christ's (you do agree, don't you, that Christ was physically resurrected?). This, to me, says it, too, will be a physical resurrection. If we're going to end up as spirits, then why did God bother creating a physical universe at all? Why go to all the trouble of arranging for us to live on a physical planet, give us physical bodies and teach about a physical resurrection if at the end of it all, we don't have physical bodies? What's the point of the whole earthly physical experience? Are you saying that spirits are limited in some way so that physical bodies are necessary, but only temporarily? What was the point of Jesus' physical resurrection? "Handle me and see,..."
And since you agree that "we will be like Him", if we do become physically resurrected (which is what the scriptures seem to indicate), and God is just a spirit, that doesn't seem to be very much like Him at all.
Did Christ just ditch His body at the end of the 40-day period during which He was among the disciples after the resurrection? And speaking of that 40-day period, why is there no record in the Bible of what He taught during that time period? Did He not teach during that time period? Or were the teachings of such little worth that nobody thought they were worth writing down? He came back to be with the saints for 40 days and nothing important occurred during that time?
Or is the Bible silent on the topic because the teachings were sacred and reserved to a select few and not to be taught openly?
Furthermore, there is a mention in the parable about a "great gulf" between the rich man and Lazarus in the afterlife which is completely unimportant to the moral of the story, and would seemingly serve no purpose in its mention outside of relating a truth about the afterlife.
And good luck to you, too.
Just because your particular brand of Christianity doesn't believe in it or teach it, it doesn't change the end purpose of our creation. Some churches appear to be quite happy not knowing what the purpose of life is, and are willing to settle for being surprised at the end. The LDS are happy to receive further light and knowledge, even if it has to be parceled out a line here and a line there.
There are loads of people for whom the promise of an afterlife is the principle factor in their thinking. They say that without the afterlife, this life is without meaning. Such people would find your thinking incomprehensible. How would you respond to them?
I never recall asking the question. I do recall posting scripture to you that expressly states that it is the will of Almighty God that all of His elected saints will be preserved forever. You ignore it and you continue to ignore it. You dance around and never address the scripture directly. Therefore, I can cast aside everything that you say as just more heresy. But, if you so choose to try and address the scriptures directly, here are a few of them I quoted:
No man can come to Me unless the Father who hath sent Me draw him; and I will raise him up at the Last Day.
All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me, and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.
And this is the Father's will who hath sent Me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the Last Day.
Election is determined by the Father. No man can come to Christ unless the Father draws him to the Son. This clearly demonstrates the Depravity of man. He does not even possess the ability to come to Christ on his own. All that the Father gives to the Son will come to the Son. This clearly shows that all those and only those chosen for salvation by God will be saved. It is the express will of God the Father that the Son lose nothing that He has given the Son. It is the express will of God the Father that all of these saints be raised up at the Last Day. This clearly shows the preserving power of God so that not one single chosen one will be lost.
However, this is all really meaningless to you anyway as the LDS church heresy claims that almost everybody will ultimately be saved after spending some time in hell to pay for their own sins. Heresy that is flatly denied by the scripture, including the verses I have quoted above.
Simple as that. You want to believe that once you get on the train, the game is over.
No, as the scriptures prove you wrong. And, once a saint gets on the train the persecution starts. I have quoted this scripture to you as well. Opps!
Your viewpoint of these people who fail to endure to the end is that they're just not "the elect", so they weren't going to go to heaven anyway. You claim that they don't endure to the end because they're not elect; I claim that they're not elect because they don't endure to the end. You negate free will, I affirm it.
What a weak argument. The scriptures again prove you wrong as it is not my viewpoint, but the Word of God:
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
You negate the Sovereignty of God. I do not. I also affirm free will. I just understand what man freely wills to do. You don't. You also cannot explain this (Remember the handicap response):
As it is written, There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
A natural Man, acting by God's Permission, will:
NEVER seek God (because No Man naturally seeks God, Romans 3); NEVER do good (because the Doing of Good is not present in his native Wants, Romans 7); NEVER perform any God-pleasing action whatsoever (Because he never wants to please God, Romans 8); and NEVER even understand what he ought to do (because he cannot even understand the idea of doing anything God-pleasing, 1 Corinthians 2).
Scriptures cannot be interpreted to show that we are both right unless you butcher the Bible. I read the complete scriptures and am able to understand what I read. A very good external evidence of salvation is the ability to read and understand what the Bible does say.
You claim that the spirit of God has told you that you really are one of the elect, I claim that the spirit of God has told me that Joseph Smith didn't make up the Book of Mormon out of his head. You claim that God doesn't speak to man anymore, because the scriptures say it all; I claim that there has never been a period of time where there have been righteous people on the earth when God didn't speak to them by calling prophets to speak for Him.
I claim much more than the Spirit bearing witness that I am a child of God. FYI, Joseph Smith didn't make up the Book of Mormon out of his head; he had help from Satan. Behold the words of Satan: I will be like the Most High. Maintain your course and you will join him in the lowest depths of the Pit.
And I do not claim that God doesn't speak to man anymore. He speaks to me all the time. I do affirm that prophets walk the earth today. Sad that you wouldn't know one if he was speaking to you.
… you claim that at a certain point in time, He gave us a Book that has everything we need in it, so that He wouldn't have to bother speaking to us any more.
No I don't. True enough that the Bible is the complete Book of Special Revelation, but His voice can be heard loud and clear.
External evidence? Like what, a Wonka Golden Ticket that you have in your possesion that grants you entrance to the Pearly Gates at some point in time?
That's it, speak evil of what you don't even understand. Why boast in your mischief, O mighty man?
No, I don't think I'd be expecting anything but internal faith evidence. That's all any of us can go on.
Wrong. Only a fool depends on what is in his heart. The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?
O Lord my God, Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing; Thou hast put off my sackcloth and girded me with gladness, to the end that my glory may sing praise to Thee and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto Thee for ever.
Your words to me are Faithful and True. I cherish them all. Sweeter than honey to my mouth are Your words to my taste. You have caused me to have understanding and I delight in them. Direct my steps by Your word, and let no iniquity have dominion over me.
You will put away the wicked from the earth. You will break the teeth of those who speak evil of You. Therefore, I love Your testimonies. My flesh trembles for fear of You and I am on my face. When shall I come again and appear before God?
Faithfully shall I wait upon You, O God.
Shouldn't you do everything possible to make sure that it doesn't matter? If there is no Resurrection of the dead in Christ, then you should eat and drink, for tomorrow you die. Do not worry about us who are to be most pityied of all the earth.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Kinda makes the whole exercise seem pathetic, doesn't it. BTW, if you are wrong, you will spend an eternity in torment so you should either repent and fall upon your face before your Creator or decide that are really are right. There can be no "hedging" of your bet with eternity.
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