The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

And we know that having rewarding personal feelings is the goal.

My, we are acid-tongued (fingered?) today. And the Steelers even won! Dave, do you need to take a break from here? You don't seem quite yourself.

[malakhi]

But saying "I'm having new windows put in" sounds so pedestrian!

Well, the Pittsburgh offensive line certainly fenestrated the Tampa defense.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Present and accounted for. Lickin' my football wounds. Except my fantasy team won again. Big deal. Nobody cares. lol.

[SoothingDave]

Do you choke on the concept of Theotokos, or "God-bearer"?

Well, I can't find that word in my Gk.lexicon, so I assume it's not a title that God Himself ever used. As I said before (#1293), it's a term I prefer not to use because it places more of an emphasis on Mary than is afforded her in the scriptures.

She is addressed as "mother of the Lord" in Scripture.

Technically, I suppose you could say that "Mary was the mother of God," but my gut-feeling is that it seems to elevate her above God. "Mary was the mother of the Son of God" is better for me.

This gut-feeling is what I wish to address. When the term Theotokos is used it, like other technical terms in any field, has a certain meaning. Havoc has a conniption about it because it sounds like we are making Mary create God or pre-exist God. You say it "elevates" her above God.

That is your impression and if we know anything from the past few decades it is that your feelings are valid. But to knock down a Truth because of your feelings about what it could mean, but does not; instead of what it actually means is silly.

I really don't even see why it is an issue nor why anyone would WANT to call her that so badly that fights would break out over it! Why not just Mary, Jesus' mother? I don't understand why her "title" is of any importance at all. Just call her what God calls her.

You mean "Mama!" Excellent suggestion.

(I fear you meant something else. We fight so badly over it becasue it is True, and many wish to attack this truth, most of them in abject ignorance. You also reveal an ignorance as to the reason for calling Mary the Mother of God. It is a testament to the eternal divinity of Jesus. He was God before He was Incarnated and He was God (and Man) when He was Incarnated. Mary bore God in her womb testifys to who Jesus is, not who Mary is. As I've said a few thousand times, when we really question someone who denies Mary her role, we find someone who denies Jesus' divinity.)

SD

[D-fendr]

Concerning theology/doctrine, spiritual knowing (from scripture on otherwise), I think both the Catholic view and protestant view (as I define them of course), have merit, truth.

They complement each other, each is required for fullness. It is when one is taken to the extreme of disallowing the other or not realizing the balance and proper use of each, that sides are drawn, and competition is joined.

I think it's unproductive and encourages self-ness and defensiveness, separation not union. It's also not necesssary and hinders the spreading of greater knowledge.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Kind of hard to get a good topic going lately. We pretty much covered it all several times:) Wonder why it took the leaders 30 yrs to finally figure out they couldn't get together? Remember that was what the original article that started this thing was about:)

Becky

[SoothingDave]

What I think is disingenuous is quoting from a no longer used Bible (by any Church) to prove a point. ("Hail..full of Grace).

Reggie, when a newer "modern" translation is issued the old ones are not retracted. They were approved and remain approved. The issue here revolves around the proper translation of the underlying Greek, so any translation into another language is not authoritative.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Luckily for us, Church teaching is not determined by popular vote. Not so for the Episcopalians and most other Protestant denominations.

The millions of "Catholics" in the world who don't know Jesus, who get on bended knee, weep and wail, and pray to Mary, are "Catholics. They don't know "Church teaching" because it is not made available to them. To say "the Church doesn't teach that" is a cop out. What the "faithful" practice, with the knowledge and aquiescense of the Clergy, is "Practical Church teaching"

When all, or most, practicing RC's believe and/or practice the same you could possibly be justified for your arrogant, ignorant manner.

[al_c]

Kind of hard to get a good topic going lately.

Oh, I don't know about that. You got me to jump back in again this morning. Other than posting the readings or an occasional picture of my daughter or Rocky the Squirrel, I've been pretty quite before today.

[malakhi]

Wonder why it took the leaders 30 yrs to finally figure out they couldn't get together?

Yeah, we figured it out in seven months. 'Course, we've probably spent more time talking in the last 7 months than they did over 30 years...

I did miss the fun over the weekend, though, with Havoc's feline inspiration. ;o)

[SoothingDave]

(SD)-Mary remained without sin her entire life. She was the new ark of the covenant, a perfect vessel.

(the8088bass)-Now we're getting to the meat. The bottom line (as I see it, correct me if I'm wrong) is that the Catholic conception of original sin leads a Catholic to the logical conclusion that Mary was without sin her entire life. And further, that she was immaculately conceived. Perhaps this is the sticking point for Protestants in the argument over Mary's children (it is for me). Perhaps this foundational argument is the real problem that we have with perpetual virginity.

The concept of Original Sin leads to the IC (disrupting the transmission of OS). It doesn't speak to the lack of personal (regular everday) sin. Adam and Eve had no OS, but they were capable of sin. Mary had no OS and was capable of sin. That she did not sin was a special grace given to her but I believe it is a separate issue from the IC.

I am waiting for a reply from SoothingDave on this same question. It appears that Romans 3: suggests not only do all (includes Mary) have sin but that we are saved on "faith alone". It is just possible this is a difficult question to respond to.

Romans 3:
22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;
23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,

Romans does not suggest that "all" have sinned, as we define "all." Again we see the use of Hebraic hyperbole. Jesus did not sin. We are told that Job did not sin. "All" here does not mean "everyone."

Everyone who is saved, including Mary, is saved because of the grace of God, through no merit of their own.

SD

[SoothingDave]

And we know that having rewarding personal feelings is the goal.

My, we are acid-tongued (fingered?)

Yeah, that wasn't nice. Please ignore that, hopefulpilgrim.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Our church leaders (that includes all denominations) need to address this situation seriously and vigorously ... and we need to do the same. No, we more than likely will not be able to reach everyone that doesn't hold to the teachings of Christianity, but we can certainly reach out and try. That starts within the confines of our own families. Families need to pray together, study together and attend regular services together. That's the starting point for turning our congregation around and getting it back on the right track.

May God bless us in this effort to revive His church.
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So Right. Thank you.

[JWinNC]

This post is for all:

Anyone want to weigh in as to women in Church leadership (any church)? I ask because it is a hot topic where I live. A local church is under some scorn for trying to keep women from being voted into certain positions.

Peace, JWinNC

[malakhi]

Anyone want to weigh in as to women in Church leadership (any church)? I ask because it is a hot topic where I live. A local church is under some scorn for trying to keep women from being voted into certain positions.

Great question, JW! Thanks for jumping in.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

As I've said a few thousand times, when we really question someone who denies Mary her role, we find someone who denies Jesus' divinity.)

Mary is not the mother of God. It is true that Jesus Christ is God the Son, and Mary was the mother of Jesus, but the New Testament does not even hint that Mary should be thought of as the mother of God. Jesus Christ, as God the Son, had no beginning. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (Jn. 1:1). Christ as God had no mother, or beginning. It was only His human, earthly existence which began in the womb of Mary. She is the mother of His humanity, not His divinity.

The Godhead has no motherhood!

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I don't beleive you become a part of the body of Christ until you have accepted his gift of salvation.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Women are not to be in church leadership: pastor, deacon, elders, etc. They can teach children and younger women.

Becky

[JohnnyM]

This is in your response to the interpretation of Scripture.

angelo, here is where the confusion lies. True Sola Scriptura is interpretation via the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit revealing the truths of the Bible. It is the Holy Spirit who gives us insight. Now, the word personal interpretation is a little misleading because it implies that it is "I" who interprets and not the Holy Spirit. True Bible only, Scripture only Christians realize that it is the Holy Spirit that is responsible for the revelation of Scripture, and the fallibility of man that can screw it up.

JM