Afghan women live as slaves (minor gag alert)

The Deseret News ^ | 10/12/2001 | Ellen Goodman

[Utah Girl]

Pretty good editorial, until she got to the all fundamentalists comments.

[ignatz_q]

Why the gag alert? It's all very well to complain about some of the loopier American feminists, but the truth is, they were warning us about the Taliban for a long time. If we had taken those concerns seriously, we might not have sent them all those millions of dollars.

Occasionally, even the people we disagree with have a point worth noting.

[Utah Girl]

And I agree with the warnings about the women in Afghan and the Taliban. The problem I had with the editorial is equating all religions with the Taliban and how all religions keep women subordinate. They don't, and I'm tired of that tripe.

[ignatz_q]

Well, I see your point, although I don't think it exactly said that. It did say that the fundamentalist versions of all religions tend to oppress women. I'm having a hard time coming up with an answer to refute that statement.

[goodieD]

Yes, it stinks to be a woman in Afghanistan right now..but it stinks to be anyone who wants any kind of freedom in Afghanistan. No one cares or complains about anyone but the women. And where is NOW and their gang these days? They are just as concerned that we don't beat up on the Taliban as anything else.

[ChemistCat]

Well, NOW got so focused on abortion "rights" that they forgot that improving the condition of families is part of improving the condition of women. They identify all conservative religious Americans with repression of the flushable uterus, and so important is that one issue to them that it fuzzes their thinking: the enemy of my enemy is my friend, even if that "friend" stones women for showing an ankle.

[JRandomFreeper]

It did say that the fundamentalist versions of all religions tend to oppress women. I'm having a hard time coming up with an answer to refute that statement.

Define oppression. The left has stolen it, and you are letting them. Oppression is _not_ "defining roles based on gender".

/john

[ikanakattara]

OK - I can see why this posting got a minor gag alert, because of Ellen Goodman's STUPID comment morally equating the Taliban with fundamentalist Christians and Orthodox Jews. However ... just because Ellen Goodman is wrong here, and just because feminists have brought these Taliban atrocities to light, is no reason to dismiss them. And yes, there was a good point made too, to the effect of "It shouldn't just be about the women." From what I've read, boys are taken from their homes at age 6 or 7, to be brainwashed in Taliban "seminaries" which are basically training schools for murder. Jamie Glazov of Front Page magazine has written how boys in these societies are frequently sexually abused by older men. The Taliban has been putting pre-teenage boys on the front lines with rifles.

The thing to keep in mind, though, is that these Taliban abuses of young boys and young men is made possible BY the abuse of the women. Free women (especially free ARMED women) wouldn't stand for their sons being ripped out of their homes, to be given to the same murderous pederasts who are trying to oppress them.

So let's not get bogged down here in our own problems with the NOW gang. Taliban-style oppression of women, girls AND boys is only the most extreme example of a world-view that wants to FORCE everyone into their medieval prisons. This medieval world view PRODUCES terrorism.

[Utah Girl]

Excellent comments. And that is why I always struggle with words to tell feminists who call me oppressed because I belong to a church that delineates the gender roles. I don't feel oppressed, indeed the men are warned that if they abuse the power of the priesthood and lord it over their wives and other women, then "woe be unto them." I've always been told that I can be anything I want to be and that I've had those abilities. And I am treated as an equal. I don't need to have the priesthood to be equal with men, I have a different role. Sorry to rant.

[JRandomFreeper]

God delineated the gender roles. I cannot suckle a child, but I can provide food and shelter for her mother. Men and women are different. The extremists would have us deny what we all know to be true. When they fling oppressed at you, ask for a definition. Words mean things.

/john (oppressed by having to support a family. NOT!)

[Utah Girl]

Thanks! Your comments are always so wise.

[ignatz_q]

Oppression is _not_ "defining roles based on gender".

Sure it is, if such roles are found to be unjustly burdensome by the women themselves. If only those who oppressed were permitted to define "oppression" then no one would be oppressed, right?

It's not up to the leaders of fundamentalist movements, of whatever faith, to say whether or not what they are doing is oppressive. Of course they will say it is not. But if the members of those movements find the conditions oppressive, and the nature of those movements make it impossible for those members to seek redress, that seems like prima facie oppression to me.

This isn't a matter of left and right... it's a matter of right and wrong.

[Utah Girl]

My point (and I didn't make it very well) is that the feminists assume since women aren't allowed to have the priesthood in some churches, or men and women are separated at the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem, that that is oppression. They look from the outside in, and make assumptions that aren't true.

[FITZ]

You can't call killing and de-humanization of anybody, "religion."

What about the Aztecs whose god required they do human sacrifices? It was religious rituals, we couldn't let them have freedom of religion either. Good thing the Spaniards weren't so overly politically correct.

[ignatz_q]

My point (and I didn't make it very well) is that the feminists assume since women aren't allowed to have the priesthood in some churches, or men and women are separated at the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem, that that is oppression. They look from the outside in, and make assumptions that aren't true.

And you are correct that that's wrong, no question about it. But my point (and I realize and respect that you may disagree) is that a person would be hard pressed, I think, to find any fundamentalist religious movement that did not have women members who felt legitimately oppressed.

It's not about whether or not I think they're oppressed. The key is how the people in these communities feel themselves.

[Utah Girl]

True. Women, well, people do feel oppressed no matter what. It is that victimology thing.

[JRandomFreeper]

Defining roles, not defining oppression. Oppression is clearly defined. Please read what I wrote.

It's not about feelings. Its about objective right and wrong. But, within the boundries of justice, societies are free to define roles. My daughter feels oppressed that she has chores. Is she? No.

You might want to study Aristotle a bit. It'ts tough going, but it's worth it.

/john

[atafak]

Islamic law consists not only of the Koran, but also of the hadith, the acts and sayings of Mohammad. Here's one of his quotes on women:

Muslim 1140 The Prophet said: "The majority of those who entered the Fire of Hell was that of women." "So avoid the allurement of women." "Allah tests men by means of women but great is the harm done to men.