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Why the Cherokee Nation Allied Themselves With the Confederate States of America in 1861
Lew Rockwell.com ^ | January 7, 2004 | Leonard M. Scruggs

Posted on 01/07/2004 7:12:30 AM PST by Aurelius

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To: carton253
during the times she is writing about and in the context she uses these words... she is talking about anything other than slaves

In the times and the context, I think more than one interpretation is reasonable. Hiring the labor of other people's slaves was very common, and renting out slaves was a major source of income for many who bought slaves as an investment, but didn't own significant agricultural property.

On the other hand, Mrs. Jackson's being mealy-mouthed is quite "in context," as well. Ladies didn't call a spade a spade, as we do in these air-conditioned times :-).

I don't care (except as an interesting historical question, "What do we 'know,' and why do we think we know it?") whether Gen. Jackson owned slaves. Is there a moral difference between owning a slave and renting the labor of one? Not to me. Is there a moral difference between owning a slave yourself, and your wife's owning a slave? Nope. Is there a moral difference between treating a person well, and treating a person poorly, irrespective of legal status? You betcha. No one has ever suggested that Jackson treated any person, in any context, without respect for his Christian dignity, and that's why I admire him.

281 posted on 01/09/2004 3:10:39 PM PST by Tax-chick (I reserve the right to disclaim all January 2004 posts after the BABY is born!)
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To: lentulusgracchus
My oldest daughter had an emergency sewing project for Girl Scouts. Now I can barely move, after hunching in front of the sewing machine in my condition ... thank the free enterprise system for cheap California wine ...
282 posted on 01/09/2004 3:13:12 PM PST by Tax-chick (I reserve the right to disclaim all January 2004 posts after the BABY is born!)
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To: Right Wing Puppy
Psst, the South lost.

I hardly think that is relevent to the discussion here, not even if it is posted twice.

283 posted on 01/09/2004 3:26:13 PM PST by Aurelius
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To: Jokelahoma; Aurelius
Actually, I'm not sure whether I agree with you.

Your complaint about hasty generalization/unrepresentative sample in the poster's supposed inductive error may be hard to support.

The question in court would be called "patterns and practices", and the question here is whether 1) the Cherokee were justified in 1861 in seeing parallels to their removal 25 years before in terms of federal policy and practice, and 2) whether their resulting support of the Confederate position supports Aurelius's writer in concluding that Cherokee agreement with the Confederates that USG had indeed engaged an abusive policy toward divergent (but presumably protected) interests, and that such actions were typical of the ninteenth-century United States Government, does in fact constitute contemporary support for the Confederate position on secession and the Civil War.

It doesn't exactly make the scales go "clang", but it's interesting that the Indian nations sided with the Confederates when they could have remained neutral, and that they said that they took sides out of their own perception, that the Lincoln Administration's policies toward the South reminded them of Jackson's policies toward them, which is a pretty damn strong thing to say, given what they'd been through.

The best way to subvert the document's apparent support would be to allege undue influence by Confederate agents, or some sort of credible coercion.

284 posted on 01/10/2004 12:26:42 AM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: stand watie
i have seen NO PROOF from any ORIGIONAL SOURCE that GEN Jackson OR his wife ever owned a slave, including any source from her.

Then you have never read her book, have you?

ALSO, can you explain why his/her tax records show NO slaves EVER as personal or farm property????

Can you explain why Mary Anna Jackson would talk about slaves owned by the family if there were none?

285 posted on 01/10/2004 3:28:32 AM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: stand watie
we know that you, as the Damnyankee Minister of Propaganda, post every possible piece of information, whether true or false, to attempt to destroy the reputation of all the heroes of southerners.

And we all know that you as...whatever the hell you are, will deny every possible piece of information, regardless of all evidence to the contrary, that you view as negative towards your sothron heros. Lee, Jackson, Stand Watie all owned slaves.

286 posted on 01/10/2004 3:31:14 AM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: lentulusgracchus; stainlessbanner
The books by William Trotter that I'm reading, about North Carolina, are extremely interesting. Our Stand Watie might call him a "Marxist historian" - he introduces some class-based economic analysis, including the notion that Western North Carolina had something like a pre-industrial-proletariat. Curious, even if one disagrees ...

Anyway, at the point I've just reached, he's declared himself a big fan of Gen. Joseph E. Johnston! I don't believe I've ever come across such a thing :-); gives me something new to hunt for in the library.

Do you have an opinion on Johnston, Stainless, or a book to recommend?

287 posted on 01/10/2004 6:43:56 AM PST by Tax-chick (I reserve the right to disclaim all January 2004 posts after the BABY is born!)
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To: Non-Sequitur
Lee, Jackson, Stand Watie all owned slaves.

What existential or moral importance do you think we should attach to this statement?

Assuming arguendo that you are correct, what value does your statement have for the person reading American history? Is this information useful to know? If so, what is its utility for the modern American?

288 posted on 01/10/2004 9:54:45 AM PST by lentulusgracchus
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To: Agnes Heep
interestingly, you need only read the memoirs of MANY yankee officers to find that the typical rebel POW said that the reason he/she (YES there were MANY female Confederates, a considerable number of whom were wounded and/or died as a direct result of combat!) was fighting was for their "RATS" (one officer said he wondered why on earth that southerners were so interested in the welfare of "rats"! it was then explained to the colonel that they meant "RIGHTS"! the colonel said that that the correction by a subordinate caused him a red face! LOL!)

you are PARTIALLY correct that then ,as now, the well to do politicians DID lord themselves over the "common folk".

nonetheless, the typical CSA veteran KNEW precisely what he/she was fighting for = separation from the thew average southerner regarded as the damnyankee-controlled government, which they regarded as intrusive,coercive, dictatorial,anti-LIBERTY & NOT protective of their GOD-given civil rights.

whether you like this or not, that is the TRUTH.

free the southland,sw

289 posted on 01/10/2004 10:06:00 AM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. ,T. Jefferson)
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To: carton253
THANK YOU!

i'm beginning to wonder if the "servants" she describes were "freepersons of colour", hired by the day/week/month OR if they were her father's slaves?????

otherwise the failure to tax his/her supposed "slaves property" for about 15 years makes no sense.

as such, i'll go look at her family's tax records. i'll let you know what i find.

once again, THANKS for your efforts.

free dixie,sw

290 posted on 01/10/2004 10:10:25 AM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. ,T. Jefferson)
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To: stand watie
... nonetheless, the typical CSA veteran KNEW precisely what he/she was fighting for = separation from the thew average southerner regarded as the damnyankee-controlled government, which they regarded as intrusive,coercive, dictatorial,anti-LIBERTY & NOT protective of their GOD-given civil rights.

That's what every faction in a democracy believes when the majority isn't on his side. It's been happening for years, and continues to happen. But in the instant case there was a single, overriding issue that trumped all else and successfully divided the nation geographically. Without that geographical division, there could have been no war. If we could get the abortion issue similarly divided geographically we'd be in the same situation.

291 posted on 01/10/2004 10:32:26 AM PST by Agnes Heep
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To: Tax-chick
LUCKY YOU!

as much as i would have liked to "offer my arm & my sword" to the TRUE CAUSE, i DO like my 21st century comforts too.

they also serve the TRUE CAUSE, who work NOW for dixie FREEDOM!

free the southland NOW,sw

292 posted on 01/10/2004 10:35:37 AM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. ,T. Jefferson)
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To: stand watie
Anesthesia, antibiotics, air conditioning ... and flush toilets! I don't think I could give them up!

Do you have an opinion on Joe Johnston? He looks like quite a grump in his photos, but Trotter says the troops admired him most, after Lee.
293 posted on 01/10/2004 10:40:42 AM PST by Tax-chick (I reserve the right to disclaim all January 2004 posts after the BABY is born!)
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To: lentulusgracchus
YEP!

those were WILD TIMES! especially in the west. my 87YO mother says, that when she was a girl, the one question that you NEVER asked anyone was, "what was your name in the states????". she said even in the 20s-30s, that was a really GOOD way to start a fight!

i recently found that "The Yellow Rose of Texas", a stunningly beautiful "freewoman of colour" had at LEAST SIX (6) men killed in duels over her, TWO (2) men tried for shooting other man because of jealous rage over her & FOUR (4)men who committed suicide, because they couldn't win her love!

she MUST have been SOMETHING to see!

free dixie,sw

294 posted on 01/10/2004 10:44:38 AM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. ,T. Jefferson)
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To: capitan_refugio
YEP, it was. good movie for the family to go/rent to see together,too!!!

i remember when Billy Mills came from NOWHERE to win the GOLD MEDAL!!! he wasn't even supposed to be in the top 10.

that was a real DAY OF PRIDE for every Indian!!!

free dixie,sw

295 posted on 01/10/2004 10:54:15 AM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. ,T. Jefferson)
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To: Tax-chick
WELL SAID!

free dixie,sw

296 posted on 01/10/2004 11:00:07 AM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. ,T. Jefferson)
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To: Aurelius
also WELL SAID!

might does NOT make right.

free dixie NOW,sw

297 posted on 01/10/2004 11:04:02 AM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. ,T. Jefferson)
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To: Non-Sequitur; lentulusgracchus
Lee, Jackson, Stand Watie all owned slaves.

Careful where that leads, non-seq. Walt will be coming after you in a second. Turns out his hero John Marshall owned ten slaves: (Marshall, evil slave holder).

298 posted on 01/10/2004 11:05:04 AM PST by rustbucket
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To: Agnes Heep
YEP, and that "single, overriding issue" was FREEDOM/LIBERTY for dixie.

if one insists on a simplistic answer to this complex question (and only simpletons want/need simplistic answers to such questions), let it be this:

southerners wanted to be FREE from a government that they believed no longer was interested in their rights & best interests. i.e.,it was precisely the same cause as the American Revolution.

free dixie NOW,sw

299 posted on 01/10/2004 11:13:22 AM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. ,T. Jefferson)
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To: Tax-chick
GEN Johnston is of my favorites after Marse Robert,Nate Forrest & Stonewall Jackson.

free dixie,sw

300 posted on 01/10/2004 11:22:52 AM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. ,T. Jefferson)
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