The FReeper Foxhole Presents the Saturday Symposium and Operation Felix - June 18th, 2005

http://www.adolfhitler.ws/lib/proc/direct18.html ^

[snippy_about_it]

Wow. I learned a lot from your post, thanks.

[snippy_about_it]

Got it, thanks steve. Interesting points.

[snippy_about_it]

If Schuberger technology were to be demonstrated I would be quite surprised. For sure!! But, heck, I like surprises, assuming it is not someone trying to kill me!!!

LOL. It sure would be interesting to see, of course as long as it doesn't kill us. :-)

[Grzegorz 246]

Wunderwaffe :)

[Grzegorz 246]

"Flying saucers hiding in secret Antarctic base "

I read about it, but on the same site I read that Egyptian pyramids were built by aliens and that W.Bush is a clone of his father.

[Professional Engineer]

1815 Battle of Waterloo; Napoleon defeated by Wellington & Blucher ("They came on in the same old way, and we sent them back in the same old way," Arthur Wellesley Duke of Wellington)

It is 4 months and 2 days until the 200th Anniversary of the Battle of Trafalgar, 21st Oct 2005

[w_over_w]

Evening Grace Folks~

We began on the Rappahannock River at the upper Pontoon site where on Dec. 11, 1862 Gen. Ambrose Burnside ordered his engineers to begin laying pontoons across the river.

All the while Gen. Barksdales Mississippi Brigade of sharpshooters utilized barricades, houses and cellars to try and stop the works. Above the tree-line is Stafford Heights from which Burnside ordered the bombardment of the town.

When the 7th Michigan Regiment and 19th Mass. used boats to establish a bridgehead the Mississipians fell back into the town. Some of the original buildings . . .

With 18 brigades (over 30,000) they crossed into Fredericksburg, then a canal and into an open field. They marched in columns 300-400 yards for 8hrs and were slaughtered like sheep. The Irish Brigade was able to get within 50yrds. Not the original stone wall along Sunken Rd., but the original remaining “open field” a victim to development.

The location of Stephen’s House which was caught in a vortex of Union attacks . . . a shell went through the house before exploding and killed Gen Thomas Cobb.

The Innis House stood as a mute witness to the combat. Note the original bullet holes. Gen. Lafayette McLaws wrote, “the house had no spaces as large as two hands on it that had not been pierced.

Midway along Marye’s Heights reserves waited to reinforce Sunken Rd.

As the Georgia Brigade occupied Sunken Rd., three North Carolina Brigades crossed the shell-swept plateau for support. Halting here to fire . . .

The only remaining part of the original wall. During the battle it was 500yrds long as high as 6ft. and made for a perfect breastwork.

Sunken road cut into the base of Marye’s Heights.

The Brompton. The home of Lt. Gov. John Marge, headquarters, hospital during the Civil War. Today it’s owned by Mary Washington College and is occupied by the current chancellor.

On the southern end of Marye’s Heights is Willis Hill where Col. J.B. Walton’s (Louisiana) Washington Artillery bombarded the open field. The spire’s are just in front of the Rappahannock.

And . . .

I’m standing on Southern flank of Marye’s Heights (half mile from Lee’s Command Headquarters, the three radio towers are where Stafford Height’s long range cannon’s bombarded Fredericksburg.

Lee’s Command Headquarter’s on Lee’s Hill a half mile from the southern flank of Marye’s Heights and three miles from Jackson’s Corp.

Standing amongst the cannon’s on Lee’s Hill suddenly I was struck with the thought . . .

“We must find Hooker’s right flank . . . we must know!”
whereupon the Mrs. Replied
“Fine dear, lets get in the air conditioned car and you can go find it.”

On to Chancellorsville . . .

Hooker has sent three Corp (approx. 45,000) under the command of Gen Howard to establish a right flank that can sweep behind Lee and cut off his supply lines. Lee makes a risky decision to send T.L. Jackson and three divisions under Rhodes, Colston and A.P. Hill to hit the right flank of Hooker’s line.

On May 2, 1863 Lee and Jackson meet for the last time at 8AM here at Furnace Rd. and Old Plank Rd.

Jackson reaches Plank Rd. past the wilderness church at around 4PM. All hell brakes loose as he hits the apex of a mile long hanging right flank along Orange Turnpike Rd. I’m standing on this road and that’s the most awful brush you’d ever want to track through to get into position.

As sunset comes and night begins to fall Jackson makes the decision to recon Old Mountain Rd. but when the 18th North Carolina fire upon stragglers from the Union, their volley hits Jackson in three places. Here is where Jackson was hit on Old Mt. Rd.

On May 3rd, now under JEB Stuart’s command, Jackson’s Corp take Hazel Grove as Hooker orders a withdrawal toward Chancellorsville . . . huge mistake.

With 30 cannons Stuart’s command pound the Union line at Fairview 1200 yrds. Ahead and for five hours battles raged in the woods surrounding us as opposing troops attacked and 17,000 were killed.

Fairview fell about 10AM, and soon thereafter the victorious Southerners captured Chancellorsville as well. Hooker fell back about one mile to a strong position protecting its escape route across the Rappahannock River. When Lee reunited his forces at Chancellorsville on May 5th and moved forward to attack his troops encountered empty trenches as the Union army had crossed the river during the night.

[so much to see . . . so little time]

Tomorrow Bull Run and the first Manassas.

[snippy_about_it]

Wow. Be sure and thank mrs w_over_w for being patient with you. :-)

Wonderful commentary again! Thank you sweetie.

[snippy_about_it]

LOL.

[Professional Engineer]

Lookit all those bullet holes! Wouldn't that be a conversation starter.

[alfa6]

Home from work, after dinner, cut grass annnnnd a trip to Jo-anns with Mrs alfa 6 Bump for the Freeper Foxhole.

The debate over the reactivation of the USS Iowas and USS Wisconsin might make a good topic for a Saturday thread in a couple of weeks. It has been hashed out pretty well in several threads on FR lately however. My .02 is that it ain't gonna happen again, won't get into that here and now,

As far as Germany and Gibraltar, the Nazi's screwed the pooch by not taking Gibraltar. Had they taken Gibraltar, the Brits would not have been able to hold Malta, which would have made the British hold on Egypt very iffy at best.

I will have to look in my past Wings/Airpower issues as there was an article on what might have happened if after the fall of France the Germans would have turned on North Africa, IIRC

Regards

alfa6 ;>}

[PhilDragoo]

Hitler's much-publicized meetings with French, Spanish, and Italian leaders during October appear to have been a personal attempt to lay a groundwork for this "fraud." Nevertheless, in the end this undertaking proved too much for even Hitler's mastery of the art.33 What Hitler apparently hoped to do was to satisfy everyone after Britain's defeat at the expense of Britain's African empire. He conferred with Mussolini on 4 October, and thereafter he talked with German Army and Navy commanders about military plans for Gibraltar and Africa. On 22 October, he discussed prospects for French collaboration with the Vichy vice premier, Pierre Laval. On the following day, Hitler met General Franco at the Spanish border. During their conversation Franco gave an oral pledge that Spain would join the Axis and enter the war at an undetermined future date-provided Germany promised approximately the same considerations that Spain had demanded in August.34 On 24 October, Hitler talked with Marshal Pétain. The marshal agreed to issue an official announcement stating that France had an identical interest with Germany in seeing the defeat of England, and that the French Government would "support, within the limits of its ability, the measures which the Axis Powers may take to this end." 35 Actually, Hitler's conferences had failed to produce an explicit agreement on the terms of collaboration or on the subsequent division of the spoils, and Spain had not really committed itself to enter the war in the near future. Nevertheless, on 4 November the Fuehrer instructed his commanders to go ahead with detailed planning for the Gibraltar operation.36

Operation FELIX, as the Gibraltar project was christened, contemplated a German entry from occupied France into Spain about 10 January 1941. Simultaneously, German planes from France would attack British shipping at Gibraltar in order to drive British naval support away from the fortress; they would then land at newly prepared Spanish airfields to provide air support for the attack. An artillery barrage-primarily by German guns secretly emplaced in advance-would begin at the same time. About three weeks later (on or after 1 February), German ground forces would arrive before the Rock to spearhead the attack. The Gibraltar assault force would be followed through Spain by two German divisions-one armored and one motorized-that would cross the strait into Morocco to seize control of its Atlantic littoral. Three more German divisions were to cross Spain to the Portuguese frontier, where they would be in position to counterattack a British landing in Portugal. Spain, with the aid of German guns, would reinforce the Canaries to guard them against an anticipated British attack. After Gibraltar's capture, the Germans planned to garrison it themselves and also to maintain German artillery on both sides of the strait to insure that the western exit of the Mediterranean remained closed to the British. Only after Britain's defeat would Gibraltar be turned over to the Spaniards. Plans and the necessary reconnaissance for subsequent operations in northwestern Africa and against the Atlantic islands had not been completed when FELIX was presented to Hitler for his approval on 5 December. By then, the German Army, Navy, and Air Force had reported to Hitler that their plans for FELIX were complete, and the German High Command on 2 December informed its staff that General Franco had agreed that operations should be launched at the beginning of February. 37

At this point, the Germans demanded that Franco give his express approval to the commencement of operations on or about 10 January 1941. The Spanish dictator on 7 December refused to do so, or to agree to Spanish entry into the war at any early date in the future. 38 Since the Germans had throughout considered Spanish collaboration an essential to the execution of their project, Hitler felt he had no alternative but to postpone FELIX make Franco an offer he couldn't refuse.

Gen. Ludwig Kuebler's XLIX Corps proceeded according to plan assisted by Ju88As, Stukas, 150 radio-controlled Goliath tanks packed with explosives and a fleet of flying saucers from the secret base in the Arctic the feared saucertruppen.

[PAR35]

Some of the original buildings . . .

The buildings may be original, but I have some doubts as to whether the vehicles shown in that photo are authentic to the period.

[PAR35]

First, it would have secured the soft underbelly of Europe, especially the Romanian oil fields. A secondary benefit would be that the Afrika Korps and the forces that were used to try to defend Italy could have been used elsewhere. I don't see those forces as being a make-or-break item like the eventual loss of Romanian oil, however.

After Egypt, the force could have pushed through Palestine to link up with the Vichy in Syria, and then on to the oilfields of Irak and Persia.

[Iris7]

That is a very good piece. You have nothing but respect from me.

Thought about the Federal Right at Fredericksburg some. Caught between Marye's Heights and the river bottom, which was probably impenetrable to transport in those days, Longstreet's Left could not be turned. What I wonder is why there was no upstream crossing. Surely a 120,000 man army could have been divided in the face of the enemy in this case? One wonders.

The swing upstream to Chancellorsville, as far as I can see, was way to late and went way to long. Again, don't know the ground, myself. I figure, though, that if you were going to out maneuver Lee, with Lee on interior lines and in friendly territory, you were going to have to move quickly indeed.

Looking at your photos, the Chancellorsville battle, google says, was April 27 - May 6. Would the visual lines be more open and maybe the terrain less difficult six weeks ago than it is now? Looks like a heck of a place to attack through, especially in 1863.

---

Perhaps there are some here even more hazy on this campaign than I am. I found this piece, below, by accident and think it is the best short description I have seen of the Chancellorsville operation. An Army study.

Below is from:

http://www.space.edu/LibraryResearch/battles/carpenter.htm

Hooker was under increasing pressure from Lincoln to make a move against Lee. In preparation for his first major offensive as commander, Hooker developed a plan to finesse the Rebels out of Fredericksburg and their strong defensive position. Hooker had learned from the disastrous results of the direct assault that Maj. Gen. Burnside had attempted on those same positions during the Battle of Fredericksburg in December of 1862. Instead, he chose to try to outflank the Rebels and come at them from the rear.

The Battlefield

In an attempt to distract his opponents, Hooker sent his newly formed cavalry south to harass the railroad to Richmond, the Rebels' only means of supply. Leaving a force of 40,000 under Maj. Gen. John Sedgwick at Fredericksburg, Hooker took the remaining 90,000 men of his army northwest to Kelly's Ford and then south through the "Wilderness" to Chancellorsville. Hooker chose this more difficult route in order to disguise his actions from Lee and preserve the element of surprise that he would gain from passing through the forest undetected. He also wanted to keep his forces between Lee and Washington and protect his lines of supply and communications. Lee however, received reports from Stuart about large bodies of Union infantry passing through the Wilderness and was not fooled.

Lee soon realized that Sedgwick was content to entrench his forces on the South bank of the Rappahannock River. Considering that, and the reports he had received from Stuart, he split his forces and began sending men toward Chancellorsville and the Wilderness as quickly as he could. He left a skeleton force of 10,000 under Maj. Gen. Jubal Early at Fredericksburg to defend against the 40,000 Union troops under Sedgwick.

The leading forces of Union and Confederate troops met in the Wilderness east of Chancellorsville on 1 May 1863. When he encountered the Confederate resistance, Hooker quickly pulled his forces back to the trenches around Chancellorsville. He positioned his lines around the town, guarding the approach roads, and into the Wilderness. Unconcerned about his army's position in an inhospitable Virginia forest, Hooker settled in to await the Rebel assault and handed the offensive to Lee. Unfortunately for Hooker, Stuart was not as complacent. He had spent that day with his cavalry observing the movements of the Union forces and had discovered that the Union flank was ìup in the air.î The right flank on the Union line tapered off with nothing but 3 miles of undefended and unpatrolled forest between it and the river.

Armed with this information, Jackson persuaded Lee to go against all conventional military wisdom and split his force a second time. Jackson took 25,000 men to attempt to outflank the Union forces leaving Lee with only 15,000 in the face of Hooker's 90,000. Jackson and his force began their daring 15 mile march early in the morning on 2 May. Throughout that day, they passed in front of the Union lines on back roads, hoping that they would remain immobile. Several small skirmishes broke out and Hooker received multiple reports that Confederates were moving but instead of preparing for an attack, he assumed the Rebels were retreating as he had predicted. Late in the afternoon, the tail end of Jackson's line was spotted crossing a clearing and was fired upon by Brigadier General David Birney's artillery. The Union forces captured a large number of Confederate prisoners in the resulting scuffle. They reported Jackson's destination, but Hooker still refused to commit the bulk of his army against the Rebels. Instead he sent one corps under Maj. Gen. Daniel Sickles to pursue the ìretreatingî Confederates. Lee confronted Sickles' Corps in several small engagements and prevented him from leaving the area around Catherine's Furnace.

Jackson's Attack

Jackson reached his objective and was ready to attack at about 5 PM, just as the Union forces were settling down to their evening meal. They were caught totally off guard as the Rebel bugles sounded and the Southern forces came crashing out of the woods preceded by assorted wildlife. The momentum of the Rebel charge was such that it completely overwhelmed the Union lines and collapsed the right flank within 15 minutes. Hooker did not learn of the attack until 6 PM since the forest and thick undergrowth muffled the sounds of the battle. He attempted to reform his lines and shift his troops to meet the attack behind a line of unfinished entrenchments near Dowdall's Tavern. He also alerted Sickles, on the heights near Hazel Grove, to the threat at his rear. The Confederate wave continued on for another hour until it reached Hazel Grove and, having lost cohesion, was repelled by the 22 guns of a horse battery in the III Corps under Sickles. Unfortunately, the Rebel attack also scattered Sickles' Corps. In the darkness, he tried to reassemble his troops and extricate himself from what was quickly becoming a pocket. As he pushed back to Hazel Grove he stumbled upon both Union and Confederate lines and came under fire from the Union artillery. He eventually managed to pull his battered troops back to the south, to relative safety.

Jackson took a few members of his staff and rode ahead of his lines to scout the Union's new positions. He hoped that the moonlight would allow a night attack with which to finish the Union army. As he returned, he was shot and mortally wounded by his own troops who had been alerted to enemy horsemen in the woods. The noise drew the attention and fire of a Union battery that wounded Maj. Gen. A. P. Hill. Both wounded generals were taken to the Wilderness Tavern where they were treated. Stuart took command of the corps and decided that it would be better to reform and wait for daylight to continue the attack.

In the mean time, the rest of the Union lines had begun to settle into position and additional troops had arrived from Fredericksburg. Neither army realized that Jackson was overlapped on both ends that night. Had he advanced then, he would quickly have found himself surrounded by relatively fresh Union troops. At that point Hooker had more troops in the Army of the Potomac who had spent the day in reserve than Lee had in his entire army. Hooker, however, had lost his nerve. His focus now was on pulling his forces into a shorter, more defensible line and hoping that Sedgwick would storm Fredericksburg and attack the Confederate lines from the rear.

[Iris7]

"After Egypt, the force could have pushed through Palestine to link up with the Vichy in Syria, and then on to the oilfields of Irak and Persia."

My belief, also. Delay the attack on Russia for a year, and meet up with the Japanese in India. Maybe the Japanese would have been interested in the Russia operation.

Perhaps Hitler had no choice about Barbarossa's timing though. "Suvarov" in Icebreaker says a massive Soviet attack was immanent in July 1941. Could be Hitler thought so, anyway.

[Excuse_My_Bellicosity]

U.S. Marine Lance Cpl. Scott Hambrick interacts with Iraqi children during a quick break from conducting a patrol in Fallujah, Iraq, June 14, 2005. The 2nd Marine Division and Multinational Force-West are conducting counter-insurgency operations with Iraqi Security Forces. Hambrick is attached to the 6th Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Division. U.S. Marine Corps photo by Cpl. Robert R. Attebury

During a patrol around four blocks in Fallujah, Iraq, a soldier of the Iraqi Intervention Forces, 1st Battalion, 2nd Brigade, 1st Division, searches a driver of a van that refused to stop, June 14, 2005. U.S. Marine Corps photo by Lance Cpl. Michael J. O'Brien

U.S. Marines with Bravo Company, 1st Battalion, 6th Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Division, patrol through the streets of Fallujah, Iraq, June 14, 2005. U.S. Marine Corps photo by Cpl. Robert R. Attebury

[steveegg]

"After Egypt, the force could have pushed through Palestine to link up with the Vichy in Syria, and then on to the oilfields of Irak and Persia."

My belief, also. Delay the attack on Russia for a year, and meet up with the Japanese in India. Maybe the Japanese would have been interested in the Russia operation.

Perhaps Hitler had no choice about Barbarossa's timing though. "Suvarov" in Icebreaker says a massive Soviet attack was immanent in July 1941. Could be Hitler thought so, anyway.

Interesting concept, but almost certainly a non-starter. There is no way that Hitler would have put off Barbarossa for a year, even without Sovarov's warning. Side note; the Soviets probably would have been stopped cold had they attacked first in 1941.

The logistics would have been a nightmare. The "best" land routes out of Syria/Palestine (not much more than goat tracks through desert) go nowhere near the sea; and even if they did, the Germans had nothing resembling either the necessary sealift capability or a surface fleet to protect the convoys. Also, the Luftwaffe had their infamous range problem.

Still, if the Germans had a grand dreamer and the ability to pull it off, it sure would've made Barabarossa easier. Then, the Soviets would've had to worry not only about an attack from the west, but one from the south.

[snippy_about_it]

Thanks EMB.