Posted on 05/11/2009 3:41:13 PM PDT by rabscuttle385
The Heritage Foundation did a study that shows that illegals if legalized would cost the government about 20K more per year than they would pay in taxes. They would only pay FICA taxes which would entitle them to SS and medicare both already broke. But Lone-Bush-bot claims republicans could promise capital gains tax cuts and economic growth to poor illegals that cant read and they would vote for those over simple tax credits (welfare checks for voting democrat)offered by democrats
What would President Fiscal conservative (as Lone-Bush-bot claims he is) GWBush care about Mexicans bankrupting our nation anyway? The sky was the limit for what he was willing to charge to our national credit card only exceeded by his brother Obama! OH I forgot, tax cuts pay for spending. That's the ticket! We could eliminate all taxes and that would pay for all of Mexico to live here and get tax credits to spend.
BTW : How many illegals bought houses that are being forclosed now? OH I forgot, they were taken advantage of. Well how the hell did Bush expect illegals to read the mortgage contracts HE PROMOTED when they cant even read english???
As someone so clearly obsessed with my arguments, I wish you would take time to read my historical posts on the matter.
You seemed determined to stir up trouble anyway.
Like so many issues, I think we fail to utilize principals of federalism to examine contentious issues like this one. I don’t have exact answers but I think some comparisons are in order for the states of California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.
How does each state deal with the problem of illegal immigration?
Of course sickoflibs knows that illegal immigration began on September 10, 2001. Prior to that, no illegal immigrants crossed into the United States. This of course happened because George W. Bush hates all Americans and loves all Mexicans.
With those rather obvious facts laid out. I think that Texas has dealt with illegal immigration much more effectively than California. California has destroyed their state by refusing to apply various rule of law components to illegals regarding benefits, schools, cars, etc.
Texas does take a more aggressive stand. Nonetheless, Bush’s role as a Texas Governor definitely colored his view of immigration. No Texas governor to my memory has been keen on to the level of a Duncan Hunter on border enforcement. I think Texas does have an idea that people can become productive citizens even if the Federal government fails to meet its constitutional duty.
The Texas economy has not been crushed by illegal immigration. California’s has. That has more to do with how the two states are governed than the intrinsic nature of illegal immigration.
That is a start on my thoughts.
I need to step outside now and let a few more illegals into the country . . .
Of course it is wrong. Our Armed forces are subservient to a civillian government as instruments of that government's policies. I am sure Ron Paul is well aware of that. Therefore, any government ordered/sanctioned actions of the US military are the responsibility of the Civillian Government which formed the policy those actions were taken to implement.
It is unfortunate that he does not make that inherently obvious Constitutional point more blatantly.
Our enemies have constituted themselves as a matter of their own will— nor ours. They have chosen their evil. We have not chosen it for them.
I guess John Prine out the question succintly, paraphrased. "Is their @ss against the wall, or just across the line?"
Has our policy cornered them or has their policy forced our hand?
One could make the argument either way, we have been meddling in the region for decades. But 9/11 was not the work of a country, but that of an idealogy. I am not so sure that we are causing the 'creation' of terrorists, as we are merely accelerating the process through attrition as new ones fill the gap. Ultimately, the Islamist idealogy calls for conquest of the world and the global caliphate, so the argument can be made that there are none who are Muslim who are not the enemy. In the meantime we have the Socialists trying to destroy this country from within, leaving it open to invasion to suit their ends.
Which is the greater and most imminent threat?
I will work on your second argument.
I think what is actually happening in the world is that WE [America] is winning. The consequence of winning is that losers (AQ) get desperate [stateless terrorism].
I describe the 21st century as the battle between the AK47 and the Cell phone. The cell phone is winning and is going to win. The cell phone is us. We have an internet and associated technologies that make the ruthless authoritarian chatters of NKorea, Cuba, and various Caliphates increasingly meaningless.
Its all over except the shouting. The idea that we are going to upset them so much that they are going to win is rather ridiculous.
Iraq is the perfect case study. There probably is not a group of 25 million people who hate AQ more than the Iraqis. We did a lot of bombing in Iraq and we were told that like Vietnam we were turning everyone into terrorists. It was not true and in fact, we have better chances of growing terrorist cells of AQ here in the US than we do in Iraq.
I do think that bombing the Taliban increases the resolve of some of these radicals. That’s fine. They will retailiate by bombing civilians while dressed up as women. this will suitably impress their fellow human beings who will hate them for being so pathetic.
The Taliban, Shias, NKoreans, Socialists, whatever are never going to win in a world where communication moves as freely as it does. The mumbai shootings portrayed the terrorists for who they were instantaneously. The way we shoot them with our cell phones and assorted technologies dooms their shootings of the AK47s.
At a broader religious level Christiantiy is crushing Islam in the race to convert the world— this also pisses them off. AFrica is the tectonic edge and they are losing. They lost half of Sudan after killing 2 million animists and Christians. They are losing elsewhere in Africa.
Current score: 3.2 billion Christians 2.0 billion muslims [probably over estimating]
Please don’t make me answer the demographics argument.
When your root argument is that all good muslims must learn Arabic while all good Christians can choose from any of 120 languages the Bible has been translated into, its not hard to figure out how this is going to turn out.
What we are witnessing is the shouting phase. Honestly, if 1000 Ron Pauls take over the US government I would not much care. Once the bombs started falling in America, people would freak and demand that we get the SOBs and the war would start again until we won.
To me, it is inevitable. In the words of Michael Leeden— faster please.
One problem is that if Texas had a half million new leftist voters (which I think would result from amnesty), the Texas government would begin to change. As for California, it may already be too late.
Just like it's changing here in Virginia, with inflows of new federal bureaucrats and illegals.
As for California, it may already be too late.
May???? It already is too late. California is a basket case like New York or Michigan.
Freedom is like prosperity. You cannot give it to someone, really. You can liberate them from their current opression, just like you can give them money, but neither mean they will be living a different life a year from now than they were living yesterday.
Both must be earned, striven for, or they are liable to be forfeit.
We have reached the point where the enemy within is as, if not more dangerous to our Repbulic than the ones without. We need not wait for bombs to fall, if the instrument of our destruction is domestic policy.
If we do not tend to the beam in our own eye, (namely the Socialist coup in progress), we can't very well run around the world picking the motes out of everyone else's and expect to have a country to come home to.
The current and unconstitutionally acting administration is assaulting our Constitution and the rule of law in this nation from virtually every angle, economic, social, environmental, and eventually will resort to the force of arms to get their way.
Why do you think so many people are buying arms and ammunition?
If we have won there, fine, but we had best better pay attention to what is happening at home or our victories elsewhere will be moot.
I describe the 21st century as the battle between the AK47 and the Cell phone. The cell phone is winning and is going to win. The cell phone is us. We have an internet and associated technologies that make the ruthless authoritarian chatters of NKorea, Cuba, and various Caliphates increasingly meaningless.
Funny, but the AK works after you drop it in the creek, and the only 'dead zone' is in front.
Technology is nice, but it is eminently fragile.
Its all over except the shouting.
You must have the same cell service provider I do...(8^D)
The Taliban, Shias, NKoreans, Socialists, whatever are never going to win in a world where communication moves as freely as it does.
Which they and others of their ilk will work to squelch communications not strictly vetted by the state (fairness doctrine), and they keep the trains running on time to convince the masses all is well.
Once the bombs started falling in America, people would freak and demand that we get the SOBs and the war would start again until we won
Ron Paul never spoke out against defending our shores. In fact, that is a Constitutional obligation of the Federal Government, and that would include securing the Southern border.
Besides, the Taliban isn't likely to drop any bombs, they might create discord with terrorist acts, though, which the current administration will use to usurp more power. Look to other parts of Asia for the players with the hardware to loft anything damaging overhead.
As a Christian, I agree the war is won, but there are a heck of a lot of people out there (and an increasingly shrill subset here) who apparently did not yet get the memo.
The battle continues...
Bush made a point on National TV of calling American Citizens Racists much to the chagrin of the Illegals for that alone I will NEVER forgive him, the other boneheaded remarks and actions the spending the Compassionate War with Americans getting killed by his Great Religion and the constant hiding from the Rats ..
I know the founder and director of the Illinois Minuteman Project, Rosanna Pulido, and she’s Hispanic. That proves that Bush is wrong. She can’t be racist against member of her race. She opposes anyone who violates American laws.
“I know the founder and director of the Illinois Minuteman Project, Rosanna Pulido, and she’s Hispanic. That proves that Bush is wrong. She can’t be racist against member of her race. She opposes anyone who violates American laws.”
Exactly that is the point laws, we had to obey them GW and the boys were giving 26 million++ a Pass and calling us names too boot, he can go to Hell..
1. Immigration policy should be based on the Constitution and what is best for the USA, not what is best for a political party or candidate.
2. Although many immigrants have positions on issues they, like most non-immigrants, do not vote on the issues. They vote based on who appears friendly to them. In my 7 lower middle class suburban precincts 100% of Hispanics voted for Bush in 2000 and for the anti-Rino Republican slate in 2001. (with the exception of 1 Puerto Rican, who of course, is not an immigrant).
3. In 2009 for mayor and village trustee the same 7 precincts went 82% for the extreme conservative slate (no party label) against the slate jointly pushed by Rinos and Dems. Both the Black vote (20%) and the Hispanic vote (30%) went 82% or more for the extreme conservatives. It was the white liberal vote that went the other way ... Teachers union people mostly. The outspoken leader of the campaign was the incumbent Black conservative in the middle of her 4 year term. She did not get 82% 2 years ago. She didn’t even get 50% of the Hispanic vote 2 years ago. But in the last 2 years her activism and high visibility have made the difference.
3. In Illinois, the foreclosure rate among immigrants (both legal and illegal) is extremely low. Between ‘96 and 2006 my suburb had 50% turnover. 50% of new buyers were Hispanic. 20% Asian immigrants and other immigrant stock. They got their mortgages from my bank where I’m personal friends with the far right wing mortgage officers. And the bank president sounded very right wing in railing against both the Bush and obama bailouts which he totally rejects. Their foreclosure rate is nil out of that office that actively recruited illegals for mortgages.
The profile for foreclosure is people with problems with alcohol, drugs, gambling, marital separate and divorce ... all of which are lower among the very religious immigrants than citizens.
A second factor is people who went to the Alinsky Learning Exchange seminars on how to flip a house. In the seminars (some of which my daughters or I attended) they were taught to buy no money down, lie about living in the house, and if it didn’t work out they could walk away with experience for the next deal. The third factor, of course, is Countrywide and WAMU type mortgages bought through a pyramid of mortgage brokers where the commissions of all the middle men were tacked on to the mortgage balance such that the mortgage was at 105% of value.
(I’m currently doing re-fi in a program that gives mortgages to 105% of value. But I’m not using that feature. The system is still broken.)
I’m not saying immigrants are perfect. But neither are they a legit scapegoat for the problems of others.
Government immigration policy should focus on:
- terrorists
- murderers, rapists, dui drivers (Lake Co IL Sheriff has it right there).
- welfare parasites, truly bad people.
- the gubmint should not tell a private businessman whom he can and cannot hire. You might think the gubmint would limit it to illegals. Dream on. They’d blacklist “haters” in a heartbeat on the slippery slope.
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