Posted on 08/18/2004 7:43:12 AM PDT by Stubborn
"This is a rather silly thread, especially since the article above is written by a sedevacantist."
<Ah, but the "elements of truth" it contains are many. And also, it was written before he became a sede. BTW, how do you KNOW he is a SEDE? Have you spoken with him?
You know, The Development of Christian Doctrine was written by John Cardinal Henry Newman prior to him becoming a Catholic--should we disregard it too? You see, your argument is "ad hominem"--against the person.
Heresy is a denial of any of the truths contained in Christ's doctrine; Protestantism denies several of these, therefore the term is applicable and wholly appropriate. On an individual basis, all Protestants are material heretics; the formality of the heresy is determined by the culpability of the one professing the false doctrines.
Thanks for your post. It all depends upon where one lives. The Latin Liturgy Association lists all Masses in Latin in the U.S.--both Traditional and Novus Ordo.
However, there are effectively 3 different "Latin" rites in the Church nowadays--the Novus Ordo as it is at most parishes, the "reform of the reform" Masses, more in line with Sacrosactum Concilium than the Novus Ordo, and the Traditional Latin Mass, which I argue, is closest to being in line with Sacrosactum Concilium as the Council Fathers envisioned it.
If all there was to the Mass was Consecration - but that is not "The Mass", that is Consecration (which is also new in form as well as words).
You posted that "Any Mass that changes the bread and wine into Christ's Body and Blood is the Mass" which implies thats all there is to the mass - which Trent condemns.
Consecration is IN the Mass, but it is a part of the Mass, certainly the main part, but its not the Mass.
The Mass of St. Pius V, is a sacrifice that we offer to God. What is known as a propituary (appeasing) sacrifice is that Mass that we offer to God for atonement. The sacrifice is what pleases Him. "The meal" OTOH is for our benefit and in itself is not the Mass.
BTW, the novus ordo mass is said in Latin (with a special dispensation) at some parishes but should not be confused with the pre V2 mass as they are totally different.
No dispensation is needed to celebrate the Novus Ordo in Latin. None.
I don't "confuse" the two Masses. I've been a Catholic for 53 years.
Since you're new here, be assured that you're not the first traditionalist to say what you've said.
We've heard every last bit of it.
For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. (Pius XII, Humani Generis, 36)
18. Love (in reference to God,
I've discovered another Modernist! "He that loveth not knoweth not God: for God is charity" (1 St. John 4:8).
22. (active) participation
I find it amusing that he then appeals to St. Pius X's intercession, since St. Pius X called for active participation.
We deem it necessary to provide before anything else for the sanctity and dignity of the temple, in which the faithful assemble for no other object than that of acquiring this spirit from its foremost and indispensable font, which is the active participation in the most holy mysteries and in the public and solemn prayer of the Church. (St. Pius X, Tra le Sollecitudini)
And the strict reason why the word essence is employed is because it is always. But this is identical with substance, because a thing which is, necessarily subsists in itself, and whatever thus subsists possesses unquestionably a permanent genus, nature or substance. (St. Hilary of Poitiers, On the Councils, 12)
"separatred brethren" instead of heretics
But, cut off from the infallible teaching authority of the Church, not a few separated brethren have gone so far as to overthrow the central dogma of Christianity, the Divinity of the Savior, and have hastened thereby the progress of spiritual decay. (Pius XII, Summi Pontificatus, 29)
To this salutary union of thought and policy, whence flow mighty deeds, in all charity We invite them, too, whom Mother Church laments as separated brethren. (Pius XII, Sertum Laetitiae, 42)
Perhaps Pius XII was a secret liberal?
Yes, there are orthodox interpretations of these very words. The point is that usually the modernist means something else entirely by them. And in Humani Generis, just because Pius XII said a certain view of evolution was not necessarily contradictory to the Faith, does not mean he endorsed it. Also, the modernists employs this term frequently to all kinds of situations within the Church (liturgy) and means something else totally by it--as if it was "common knowledge" that everything evolves.
The Latin word for "active" is not used in Sacrosactum Concilium. I doubt it was used in the Pius X encyclical you quote either. Regardless, "active" participation for some people can mean silently meditating or comtemplating the Sacred Mysteries OR simply contemplating Christ's life through use of the rosary.
As for love, the modernist usually means "a good feeling or sentiment," not St. Thomas's definition of charity.
You said: "subsists" instead of "is"
And the strict reason why the word essence is employed is because it is always. But this is identical with substance, because a thing which is, necessarily subsists in itself, and whatever thus subsists possesses unquestionably a permanent genus, nature or substance. (St. Hilary of Poitiers, On the Councils, 12)
Do you mind providing an interpretation? I understand the word "is" perfectly fine. What in the world does THIS mean?
You are incorrect. Apostasy means the total rejection of Christianity in favor of atheism, agnosticism, or paganism.
I think Pius XII was indeed a liberal, and I don't think it's much of a secret.
It's unfortunate when traditionalists pretend Pius XII was a stalwart of Papal perfection, devoid of any flaws, in order to draw a more dramatic contrast between him and his successors. The truth is that in several areas, many of the "post-conciliar" ideas and orientations decried as modernist and liberal have their roots in times before Vatican II and John XXIII. As you've pointed out, it isn't hard to find at least tacit approval in the words of Pius XII.
Perhaps the Bishops need to be informed of this, after all, the reason it went to the vernacular was so everyone could understand it, no?
I don't "confuse" the two Masses. I've been a Catholic for 53 years.
Ok, so you just confuse Consecration with Mass - got it.
Since you're new here, be assured that you're not the first traditionalist to say what you've said. We've heard every last bit of it.
I don't mind being labeled as a Traditionalist - do you mind being labeled as a novus ordo?
Apostasy is a withdrawal from the saving graces of the Church. Among many Protestant denominations, which believe in an invisible Church of All Believers, that means switching to a church that doesn't share what, from the speaker's perspective, constitutes the essential elements of the faith; merely switching from Lutheran to Methodist is not apostasy, although perhaps switching to Mormon is. To a Catholic, who believes that the Eucharist is in substance the body of Christ, leaving that communion may constitute apostasy. (It may, however, merely constitute schism; the Orthodox, for instance, are not considered apostate.)
For reference, the "great apostasy" of Revelations consists not of people renouncing Christianity, but rather of Christians who are fooled into following a false leader.
"a thing which is, necessarily subsists in itself".
The Church of Christ and the Catholic Church are one and the same thing (the Church of Christ is the Catholic Church), therefore the Church of Christ necessarily subsists in the Catholic Church. "everything subsists in respect to itself" (Augustine, On the Holy Trinity, VII, 9).
That is not the definition used by the Church.
Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.
Careful there. You are going to wipe out the orthodoxy of a century of popes.
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