Vatican: U.S. Catholic Sex Scandal Was Overstated

Washington Post ^ | Friday, October 10, 2003; 4:16 PM | Reuters

[Chancellor Palpatine]

As an Orthodox Christian, my take on the whole "celibate clergy vs. married clergy" thing is one of the type of culture it creates - because over time, the clerical class loses touch with common, ordinary concerns of family life, and the training becomes attenuated in those areas. As an aside, I tend to blame Augustine for forcing the Western branch of that church down that road, but thats the subject of several books.

At the level of the parish, the notion of having a class of nothing but celibate priests does a huge disservice to families, because that celibate doesn't understand the regular workaday tensions that arise. Providing for kids, juggling schedules, job worries, balancing checkbooks, strife with inlaws and spouses are part of every family's situation - yet that priest knows nothing more about them than what he has read in books, and hasn't had to be the responsible party in a family. Certainly a few will shine, but thats the exception as opposed to the rule, and so when Father Bob is pushing a new project, charity drive or other time and resource consumptive activity, he is truely clueless about what he is asking of his parish families. Another facet of this is what occurs with the seminaries and the hierarchy, because that parish priest doesn't have anybody else who had a family to lean on for advice and support.

At the hierarchical level, having a celibate parish clergy places them at a level of extreme disconnection with daily life of those who fund and support the structure with their time and money. They have no married clergy under them when considering day to day decisions, and thus tend to be more extravagant when they need to be - because after all, those parishioners will be paying the freight.

One thing that Roman Catholics could do to help focus this is to teach their parishes that this is a matter of tradition and to point out that former Episcopalian clerics who have crossed over validly serve and are not living sinfully, and that the Eastern Rite orders that are in communion with Rome are not violating any canon - thus marriage is a possibility, but that the tradition of the Western churches is for celibacy. Taking the incorrect notion that a married clergy is malum prohibitum out of the minds of the Roman Catholi populace will enable RCs to honestly talk about the issue without the invective we hear so frequently.

One person on this board (whose name escapes me, otherwise I'd ping him) has made a very good point that Eastern Orthodox and the RC Eastern Rite have developed a culture where they accept and understand the role of a married clergy, and thus have adopted a funding and staffing mechanism that accomodates that. His point was that for the Western Rite, the ingrained culture does not have these similar structures, and that there would be nearly insurmountable difficulties in setting that up. I thought he had good points that would need explanation and airing as well.

Just call me an interested observer.

[Destro]

I was under the impression that this is still the case, ie, that once an Orthodox priest or bishop (sorry if I use the wrong term) is ordained he, unlike a Protestant minister, cannot marry. Is that true?

Well yes, that was what I was talking about-the Orthodox or correct position. A bisop must never have been married and are not in the Orthodox faith but priests can marry-as long as it was before they were ordained and not after.

The Latin rite position is that no marriage ever unless you are a converting Anglican or something or an Eastern Uniate.

Was not talking about the protestants since they ignore or barely adhere to the rulings of the ecumenical councils.

Since an Eastern Rite Uniate can have married clergy (following Orthodox tyradition) then clergy in the Latin rite should also allow men to marry before they become priests. For example if I am an Irish man who wants to have a family and become a Catholic priest I would be denied but if I was born Ukrainian I could! I can't comprehend such double standard in my mind. There is no double standards in christianity.

I also think Catholics should follow the Orthodox in allowing divorce - but that is a topic for another discussion.

[Destro]

ditto

[Graybeard58]

When the Pope called the Cardinals to the Vatican after this scandal broke, I heard a comedian on tv talking about it. He said,"the Pope met with the Cardinals today and told them in no uncertain terms that child molestation was not only a sin but a crime as well" (dramatic pause) Then the comedian says, "Well, Duuuuh"

[bigcat00]

Chancellor,

While your comments about celibate priests being out of touch with ordinary life have a sort of superficial plausibility, my experience of knowing many priests leads me to find them entirely inaccurate on that point. Priests have brothers,sisters, mothers, fathers and friends who are married and have kids, and who have all the concerns associated with a family. Among the several priests I have counted as friends, I do not find it at all to be the case that they lack understanding of the difficulties their parishoners face. Nor, as you suggest, do I find them overly demanding of parishoners' time. In fact, in most cases they could be a lot more demanding. Finally, I may be missing the point, but I'm not surewhat the reference is to church hierarch living extravagantly - if you mean more so than their married flock. I know a number of Catholics and many others of different faiths who drive around in luxury cars,have extravagant homes and live very well indeed. In both the diocese I've lived in,I haven't seen the bishop living nearly as well as the upper class of his flock. And the clergy in our diocese make about 40k a year - hardly a windfall.

Having said that, I think you have a point and in fact it is one that I suggested myself much earlier on this thread about the seminary culture and its results. I suggested that prior to embarking on a seminary education, prospective clergy should have to go to college. At present college and seminary are often effectively the same. I like the Protestant model more on this point - a college degree and then seminary. Don't know how the Orthodox do it. i won't go so far to say that the seminary culture makes people lose track of ordinary life, as they all came from ordinary life in the first place, and have family and friends that still reside there. My point was that I wonder if the closed community that I think may develop there - not because of celibacy but because of lack of exposure to the larger world - allows its members to cover for each other when one of them is accused of wrongdoing. I don't know if it does nor not. I'm just wondering that.

Destro,

1. Why is it that Orthodox bishops and ordained Orthodox clergy cannot marry?

2. How is celibacy a double standard if someone does it voluntarily and even considers it a gift? The Orthodox church as a long and rich tradition of monastic practice,does it not,in which celibacy was and still is the rule? Is it a double standard that monks remained celibate while others did not? Or that they lived as hermits or in poverty while far less spiritual people married, had families and lived well? Does not God give gifts to some he does not give to others? Is it a double standard that an orthodox bishop cannot be married and his parisher can?

[sinkspur]

Some good comments all around.

I'm a Catholic, and left a seminary in 1976 before ordination to the diaconate because I couldn't make the commitment to celibacy.

I'm a permanent deacon now. I could very well be a priest, if the Church allowed it.

Mandatory celibacy limits the pool of candidates to the priesthood to men who feel called to it. We have married Anglican and Lutheran converts (over 100 in the U.S., over 500 in the UK) who have proven that married priests are viable in the Latin Rite of Roman Catholicism.

CP, you're right, though. It's largely an economic issue, at this point. How does the parish and diocese accommodate a married priest with a family?

As I see it, either the Church allows married men into the priesthood, or we continue to experience an increasing number of priestless parishes with laymen in charge.

That's not bad as a band-aid, but the Eucharist is the center of Catholic worship. We need ordained priests to celebrate the Eucharist.

[woofie]

As an Episcopalian I will trade you 3 nuns and a dozen deacons for 5 clergy

[sinkspur]

The growing cost of mandatory celibacy.

[Destro]

ENFORCED celibacy is a double standard. Or to put it another way-allowing some Papal clergy to practice non celibate marriage but barring other Papal clergy from marrige within the same church is ludicrous and dishonest.

As for question 1 - you can google search an answer as well as I can.

[Destro]

Convert back to Orthodoxy and you can be a married priest.

[sinkspur]

ENFORCED celibacy is a double standard. Or to put it another way-allowing some Papal clergy to practice non celibate marriage but barring other Papal clergy from marrige within the same church is ludicrous and dishonest.

Within the Latin Rite, I agree with you. Mandatory celibacy for Catholic men considering the priesthood makes little sense when Anglican and Lutheran converts are exempt, and when I'm exempt (I still receive Holy Orders, as a deacon).

[Destro]

Mention the Uniate or Greek Catholics - ignoring Lutheran and Episcopalian converst these Greek Catholics are part of the Pope's church and can do all that the Orthodox can do-like marry before ordination. But your out of luck cause -- why? You are the wrong ethnic type?

What a waste.

[Destro]

Mention the Uniate or Greek Catholics - ignoring Lutheran and Episcopalian converts these Greek Catholics are part of the Pope's church and can do all that the Orthodox can do-like marry before ordination. But you're out of luck cause -- why? You are the wrong ethnic type?

What a waste.

PS: The married Greek Catholic clergys can have sex with their wives and as many kids as they can. These are not celibate marriages.

[sinkspur]

You are the wrong ethnic type?

Not ethnic, just a Latin Rite Catholic from birth.

And, I agree, it's a waste. There are 25,000 men who left the priesthood to marry over the last 30 years. Had they been allowed to marry in the first place, there would be no priest shortage in the Latin Rite.

[Destro]

I don't envy your religion. I have little I can stomach of religion beyond its study and its place in the affairs of man.

[St.Chuck]

At the level of the parish, the notion of having a class of nothing but celibate priests does a huge disservice to families, because that celibate doesn't understand the regular workaday tensions that arise. Providing for kids, juggling schedules, job worries, balancing checkbooks, strife with inlaws and spouses are part of every family's situation - yet that priest knows nothing more about them than what he has read in books, and hasn't had to be the responsible party in a family.

That would be true if a priest was born out of an egg, but the truth is that priests are sons and brothers, uncles and friends, and understanding the economic situation isn't that great an imaginative stretch.

On the otherhand, perhaps it is due to their ignorance that they are able to seek contributions unabashedly and that is what has led to the vast numerical superiority of Catholics in the world. This class of celibate, family-less priests and nuns have had the audacity to rake in the dough that allows them to spread the gospel in the most sublime of ways. Just compare the married denominations with the celibate one, and see who is most successful.

[Destro]

That is the stupidest thing I have ever read. There are more Muslims than Catholics in the world-does that mean clergyless Islam is the God favored religion?

[St.Chuck]

That is the stupidest thing I have ever read. There are more Muslims than Catholics in the world-does that mean clergyless Islam is the God favored religion?

I was thinking in terms of comparing Christian denominations. The missionary spirit of Catholic clergy far accedes any other Christian denomination, historically and presently. Islam 's numbers can be attributed to it's relative simplicity and the one spurt of cultural dissemination that occurred long ago.

Come on......surely there is something stupider you have read. Are you unfamiliar with Carlos Casteneda?

[Destro]

Catholics are found in poor nations where the need for many children is a requirement for trying to make a living. Protestant countries, European Catholic countries and Orthodox nations are for the most part highly industrialized and such nations produce low birth rates. In addition Orthodox nations have had to suffer both Islam and communisim.

Catholicisim would be damaged if Brazil and Mexico are examples of rightness of the faith.

[Thorondir]

There are 25,000 men who left the priesthood to marry over the last 30 years. Had they been allowed to marry in the first place, there would be no priest shortage in the Latin Rite.

Your conclusion is not logical. It could only follow if it were the only variable. It is not. What about all the hideous, wacked-out abominations that occured in the runaway reforms of the liturgy. I know they do not bother you, but they are extremely painful to those who love the faith. It was wrong for them to leave rather than endure the ugliness, but you absolultely cannot draw your irrational conclusion. Each of them would probably tell you a diferent reason. They are not all thinking like you. (And we must thank God for that!)