Into Iraq Lightly

National Journal ^ | Oct 4, 2003 | Sydney J. Freedburg, Jr.

[centurion316]

Good article, as one usually finds in National Journal, provided you have a friend who can afford the subscription.

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[centurion316]

Have the 1SG post this on the Stryker Bulletin Board ASAP

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Roger that,sir.

ON THE WAY

PING!

Stryker Brigade Combat Team Tactical Studies Group (Chairborne)

[.cnI redruM]

This is the new, more dangerous version of LFT&E. Let's all pray The Shinseki For Senate Limo doesn't flunk.

[Poohbah]

The Stryker has its uses.

But was it worth a gazillion-dollar program to buy an all-new vehicle? Could the Army have just bought LAV-25s?

The FCS should invest heavily in electric armor technology. Heavy gear today, but it will be lighter tomorrow--and it will make the thing unbeatable in an RPG-infested urban fight.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

The basic LAV-series hull protects against only 7.62 mm rifle bullets, like those from the ubiquitous AK-47. Stryker adds a Kevlar liner inside the crew compartment and composite metal-ceramic tiles bolted onto the outside of the hull, which are meant to stop 14.5 mm slugs from a heavy machine gun. Bolt the two tons of slat armor on top of that, and Stryker should even have a 50-50 chance against an RPG.

The LAV III and Piranha III vehicles are about as good as 8-wheeled armor cars get. The Canadians have some in Kabul right now. From what I read they are better than the 20-year old Marine LAV-25's.

The US Army in it's infinite wisdom could not be content with a good armored car. They had to have an Interim Infantry Carrier Vehicle. It had to fit inside a C-130, so they emasculated the LAV 25mm turret and replaced it with the same weapons found on a Humvee, mounted on an unstabilized Remote Weapons Station that can't acquire and engage targets on the move. A 5-ton with a Ma Deuce on a ring mount can. Then they decided that protection was more important than mobility, so they loaded the vehicle down with spall liners, and ceramic plates, and steel plates behind the ceramic plates, and "slat" armor, and they wonder why they get stuck and run out of fuel.

"Risk aversion" has turned the LAV III into a Stryker. The effect is similiar to what you get when you take a brand new Ford SVT Lightning pickup and dump 3 tons of horsehit in the bed.

[Travis McGee]

Ping

[Cannoneer No. 4]

The Army does not suggest that 19-ton vehicles can replace 70-ton tanks

Not anymore, not since the MGS has turned into such an embarrassing Charlie Foxtrot. The MGS was supposed to be an interim stand-in for the wheeled Future Combat System Mechanized Combat Vehicle/Tank Destroyer.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

The Line-of-Sight / Beyond Line-of-Sight (LOS/BLOS) Vehicle is a FCS combat vehicle with 105-120mm cannon

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Every single Stryker vehicle -- and almost every supply truck in the brigade -- carries a built-in electronic map. Its screen displays not only that vehicle's own location, verified by Global Positioning System satellites, but also the locations of every other vehicle in the brigade. "What we can see, the whole brigade can see ... within two or three minutes."

And we used to get paranoid over losing a CEOI.

What's to keep Slicky Boy from climbing up in your cab while you take a leak and downloading every vehicle position in the entire brigade down to the 10-digit grid coordinate?

[Cannoneer No. 4]

With the network, which automatically relays messages from vehicle to vehicle to vehicle, Thompson can track every supply truck -- and e-mail its driver to stop, change course, or run away.

Uh, who is driving the truck while he reads his email?

The next Buck Rogers War Machine will be a logistics vehicle with Head Up Display in the windshield.

[TADSLOS]

What's to keep Slicky Boy from climbing up in your cab while you take a leak and downloading every vehicle position in the entire brigade down to the 10-digit grid coordinate?

He won't need to. He'll let Bill Gates do that for him.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

"What you've really got," said one U.S. military planner, "is a paramilitary police structure that is a little more robust in some ways than the Carabinieri,"

Something like the US Constabulary

Each of the constabulary squadrons' five troops had 5 officers and 155 enlisted men. These troops were organized much like a World War II mechanized cavalry troop, but their patrol and police-type missions required more light vehicles (jeeps and armored cars) and individual weapons. The troops' 13 and 12 man reconnaissance sections conducted basic patrols and made the Army's presence felt in the occupied zones.

a. The three mechanized troops were equipped with jeeps and M8 or M38 armored cars. Each troop had three platoons with three reconnaissance sections. There were 10 armored cars (each mounting a 37mm gun in its turret) in each troop (three per platoon, one per section, and one for the troop HQ). Other weapons included the .30-caliber light machine guns mounted on the armored cars and jeeps. The typical reconnaissance section had thirteen men who carried five .45-caliber machine guns, seven .30-caliber M1 rifles, and thirteen .45-caliber pistols as individual weapons.

b. Two motorized troops utilized trucks (of various sizes but mostly 1 ½ ton) mounting a single .30-caliber light machine gun on each vehicle.. Heavy weapons authorized in the troop TOE included three 57 mm recoilless rifles and three 81 mm mortars. Like the mechanized troops they were also organized into three motorized sections, but only twelve men served in each section They were individually armed with seven M1s, five .45 machine guns, and twelve pistols.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Viewers of this thread should not miss New CSA vision: more brigades -- smaller but lethal

[berserker]

Things a Stryker cannot do better:

Shi'ite Muslim protesters lie down in front of a U.S. Army Bradley vehicle after hundreds marched to the Baghdad headquarters of the U.S. led administration in Iraq, October 8, 2003. More than 2,000 Shi'ite Muslims marched to the headquarters on the second day of protests demanding the release of a cleric arrested by U.S. forces. REUTERS/Akram Saleh

[Darksheare]

I'm in.
Nothing much to say except that the quote that "No-one has suggested that a 19 ton troop carrier can replace a 70 ton tank" is false. (The Army does not suggest that 19-ton vehicles can replace 70-ton tanks in all-out warfare, at least not yet.)
Shinseki pawned it off as just that, a one on one tank replacement.

Other than that, the article is mostly informative.
(Just wish that they'd tell the truth about the dog rather than the positive spin only..)

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Just wish that they'd tell the truth about the dog

I see it more in porcine terms than canine.

The LAV III is a worthwile vehicle. Almost every modification TACOM pushed on GDLS was a step in the wrong direction. The Canadian or New Zealand version wasn't transitional enough to base a new moto-rifle brigade on, so it had to be sexed up to BS the gullible.

I think these Strykers are going to look very different in a year. Lessons will be learned; fixes will be made; the real capabilities and limitations of the vehicle will be determined the hard way, just like the US Army always does things the hard way.

[Darksheare]

True.

It's still about as ridiculous as they could get.
Especially since it was micro-managed like it was.
Hopefully, if it's worth following even after this huge expense paid out already, it's redesign phase after field testing will make it a much more worthwhile vehicle.

[LibKill]

But was it worth a gazillion-dollar program to buy an all-new vehicle? Could the Army have just bought LAV-25s

The Army damn well could have. They would have had a good wheelie, parts and mechanics compatability with the Corps. (Anyone who thinks that is not important has not studied the history of Vietnam and Grenada.)

The problem here is interservice rivalry carried to extremes.

Interservice rivalry has its place. At the Army-Navy football game.

BTW, GO NAVY! BEAT ARMY! On the football field.