Megachurches, Megabusinesses

Forbes.com ^ | September 17, 2003 | Luisa Kroll

[opus86]

Interesting article. Ultimately any church - mega or not - should be evaluated by its doctrine. Style must not overshadow substance. I'm not a big fan of Rev. Dollar's (prosperity gospel), but I've heard good things about Chuck Smith and Rick Warren.

[WillRain]

If you consider the players in Counterfeit Revival to be representitive of "mainstream evangelicals" then you, sir, are profoundly ignorent of mainstream evangelicalism.

Call Hehagraff on "The bible Answer Man" and ask him for yourself and he will quickly disabuse you of the notion.

[sheltonmac]

I don't consider them to be representative of "mainstream evangelicals," which why I qualified the term with quotation marks. My concern is that some people obviously do see them as credible representatives of Christianity. We need more men of faith like Hank Hanegraaf who are willing to expose them for the frauds that they are.

[Clintons Are White Trash]

I have a feeling that most of the people on this thread that are so quick to criticize "mega churches" have never attended one.

I do recall one strong message the pastor at our church (yes, it's over 2,000 members) was about the scripture on judging. I would never pretend to know what is in other peoples hearts and I really think they would be wise to do the same.

[safisoft]

Sunday: There is support for the Sunday Sabbath in the NT.

A simple understanding or Jewish reckoning of day (evening to evening) will reveal that in Acts the OPPOSITE is true. The Sabbath is the Seventh day - God does not change as you so correctly said.

Respectfully, there is a very clear command to Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.

Amen!

Why did God directly write some of His laws at Sinai on stone tablets - the ones destroyed by Moses in his righteous anger?

And then write them again 40 days later? Those tablets were in the Ark of the Covenant. Those are summary, and the divisions of "ceremonial," "civil," and "moral" are man-made and arbitrary. Is Sabbath civil or moral? Or maybe it is ceremonial. No, quite clearly the Word says there is "One Law" (Exodus 12:49 - BEFORE Mt. Sinai).

Also, you will note that the ENTIRE Law was written on the stones on Mt. Ebal.

Guilt by association; I think you're better than that... Easter and Christmas have their roots in ancient pagan religigions like Zoroastrianism.

From your words alone, I would never lump you with such - but since you brought up Easter and Christmas, I would reject them PRECISELY because of their pagan origins and present practice.

God does not change and therefore neither does the standard for sin

Amen! In line with the Acts 15 command against eating blood, you can see this as well... which brings us back to the question - what about pig, shellfish, etc.? God had those standards for sin before - what changed?

Thank you for responding to my rhetoric. I am a firm believer that the Word is living and active - that all of it from Genesis to Revelation has applicability to us today and should be practiced to the degree possible - not to earn salvation (laughable), but having TRUSTED in the eternal and enduring sacrifice of the Lamb without stain (Jesus) - we are called to live like He did - obedient to God's Laws - all of them - because He has written them on our hearts.

Shalom Friend.

[safisoft]

I have a feeling that most of the people on this thread that are so quick to criticize "mega churches" have never attended one.

I have - and have for a number of years. I know pablum when I see and hear it. I also know that Jesus said that the way would be narrow and few in it. Anytime everyone is flocking to something, we need to examine the RESULT. A true movement of God will be judged by HIM - and the product will be PURE. Don't give me the membership statistics - or number of "re-baptisms" - tell me about the restored marriages, the children who return, the righteous living in these so call "churches" and then we can talk about whether it is a movement of God.

I do recall one strong message the pastor at our church (yes, it's over 2,000 members) was about the scripture on judging.

The most common verse known by UN-believers is, "judge not lest thou be judged". Let us look at the context of that.

In Matthew 7:5 Jesus tells us the CORRECT way, "...first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye."

To say we are not to "judge" is unbiblical, and out of context. Instead we are told to judge with HIS judgment and standard, not our own. We are told to examine and know the fruit of ourselves, AND of others.

Matthew 7:13-16: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits.

We are called to "fruit examiners" - examining our own, and others... If someone's pastor is teaching the tired old "don't judge" routine, then there is a distinct lack of biblical teaching. We need self-judging (1Corinithians 11) and we need to be testing those leaders out there to see if they are speaking truth or not. Here is what Paul says about people who did not simply follow the religious trend - but Scripture instead:

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11

[AppyPappy]

The Sabbath is the Seventh day

Are you assuming the universe was formed on a Monday?

[aCookieMomster]

I have personally attended both Saddleback and Calvary Chapel in Southern California. Both churches do not water down the gospel nor exchange the truth of the gospel for any programs. Both of these churches thrive because of the small home group Bible studies where members connect and have accountability in their Chirstian walk. I attended a small group during Saddleback's "40 Days of Purpose" last year. We had people who had been Christians from 4 months to 40 years, and two who were seeking. The "seekers" did become Christians by the end of the study.

I am now in a small church plant in Southern California that was sent out from another megachurch. It is exciting and challenging to see God work in the lives of our tiny congregation to effect changed lives by people coming to Christ.

I think your statement, "What I see in and read about these churches whose primary emphasis is the Law," is erroneous. It is about God's love and grace that He showed us through Jesus' death on the cross.

[safisoft]

The Sabbath is the Seventh day
Are you assuming the universe was formed on a Monday?

Let's count:
1st Day (common Sunday)
2nd Day (common Monday)
3rd Day (common Tuesday)
4th Day (common Wednesday)
5th Day (common Thursday)
6th Day (common Friday)
7th Day (common Saturday)
Six days shall you labor, on the seventh you shall rest. Guess that makes it the common Saturday.

As for "when one should start counting" - this is understandable, unless you have no contact with Jewish people. Believe me, today's Monday, is EXACTLY the same 2nd day of the week it has been for millenia. I would ASSUME that Jesus knew which day was the Sabbath, and it being the 7th day - and as anyone who knows Jewish people knows... there is NO way in the past 2,000 years someone lost count of which day was the 1st, and which was the 7th.

[aCookieMomster]

You have no idea what you are saying. Saddleback, Warren's church, has regular baptisms where those being baptized have an opportunity to share their faith.

[Binghamton_native]

Specifically, most GARB (General Association of Regular Baptists) churches and many independent Baptist churches in the northeast, midwest and west have always refused to participate in a Billy Graham campaign. A national publication, Christianity Today, would tend to define a fundamentalist church as an evangelical protestant church that emphasizes separation. Separation from the world, and separation from Christian organizations that they feel do not exercise sufficient separation.

[AppyPappy]

Believe me, today's Monday, is EXACTLY the same 2nd day of the week it has been for millenia.

I assume this is a joke.

[Yardstick]

I know little about Hinn, but that deceptive cantilevered comb-over makes me suspect he's a bit self-absorbed.

[CARepubGal]

Untrue. I attended mega churches and had the pain of some horrid small groups. I was simply never fed anything but Hapeeeee Happpeeee! Everyone be Happeeeeee ( or God is mad at youuuuuuu!) and found that unrealistic and realy unhelpful during the inevitable trials and life events. God's Sovereign Will and an awareness of my fallibility and Sin with a clear explanation of scripture is so incredible and true accountability is present . How is this a bad thing?

[Clintons Are White Trash]

That doesn't mean that they are all the same. If you had a bad experience, that's unfortunate, but thousands of people are experiencing Gods love who might not have otherwise because these churches are reaching out to their communities in a new way.

[mrs tiggywinkle]

I'd encourage you to visit the CC website and see what CC believes before assuming and judging w/o full knowledge. Thank you.

www.calvarychapel.com

[Lexinom]

Consider the latest hit from Mariah Carey. Compare it to Bach's Sheep May Safely Graze. Is it simply a matter of subjective opinion to say that, in the area of beauty, the latter far exceeds the former? Is it a matter of mere taste that Jesus Christ is Risen Today exceeds Celebrate, Jesus Celebrate in joyful, deliberate majesty? I enjoy Tito Puente, and Jobim, but would never use music from that genre to worship God publically.

I can think of two possible responses you might have. One, you might say that this is all just a matter of taste, that what's beautiful and majestic to me (and we agreed God had a right to be worshipped on his terms, and He is both beautiful and majestic) may not be so to you. You might say that this is a matter of taste and that there is no objective beauty, objective majesty, objective reverence. At this point all future discussion is pointless, since the Word of God itself could be subjected to the same standard, and my "tastes" may lead me to the Koran instead. At that point we've slidden into the sticky mire that is postmodernism, the same spirit that prompted Pontius Pilate to ask "What is truth?", and has made a mantra out of the saying "That may be true for you but is not true for me."

However, this doesn't sound like you, since you've asked for Scriptures. Leviticus is replete with verses about worship, and about the ceremonial law (which pointed to Christ), which should tell us something of the character of God, that He is concerned with worship. The entire book of Psalms is a book of worship, and some churches today use only the psalms in worship. Psalm 150 is a beautiful represention of the believer committing his whole life to the worship and glory of God, expressed in musical terms. It says, let the believer use all these instruments to praise God. In the NT, we have this: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." Col. 3:16.

Lastly, the best Scriptural support I can offer is this: the Bible tells us about the character of God, from cover to cover. From this, we can determine what music is appropriate and what is not. Is the music majestic? Does it befit a king? Does it comport with God's holiness in its reverence? The music needn't come from any particular cultural background, but should reflect God's character.

I identify with your feelings on this issue because I was there once (see post 173, intended for you but erroneously addressed to me).

[Lexinom]

CARepubGal is experiencing God's sovereign, redeeming grace and infinite, umerited love in Christ the OPC.

[The Grammarian]

I'd encourage you to visit the CC website and see what CC believes before assuming and judging w/o full knowledge. Thank you.

Been there before. Decided to double-check, by the way, and the link to the "About Calvary Chapel" page is now an HTTP 404 File Not Found.

[Lexinom]

In Christ in the OPC.