Megachurches, Megabusinesses

Forbes.com ^ | September 17, 2003 | Luisa Kroll

[sheltonmac]

If you want some scary, late-night reading, pick up a copy of Hank Hanegraaf's Counterfeit Revival. You'd be amazed at just how loony some of these "mainstream evangelicals" really are.

[Lexinom]

Good grief! I can understand your frustration. No, the kind of churches you talk of, with mechanical worship, politics, deserve no defense.

A hearty "Amen".

[Lexinom]

Good grief! I can understand your frustration. No, the kind of churches you talk of, with mechanical worship, politics, deserve no defense.

A hearty "Amen".

[Lexinom]

Good grief! I can understand your frustration. No, the kind of churches you talk of, with mechanical worship, politics, deserve no defense, insofar as they add to and subtract from the Word and let the flock go hungry.

A hearty "Amen".

[TomHarkinIsNotFromIowa]

Who is leading us away?

Who will lead us back?

[Wallace T.]

I am aware that there are liturgical churches where God's Word is faithfully and accurately taught. The Reformed Episcopalians and the Wisconsin Synod Lutherans come to mind. James Kennedy, a PCA minister, runs a robes and ritual congregation in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. However, the liturgy of these churches, similar as it is to the mainline liberal denominations, must be an impediment to sound preaching, as it focuses on externals rather than the Word of God.

[Binghamton_native]

I suspect you are not using the term "fundamentalist" as it is usually used. For example, a fundamentalist church will usually not cooperate with a Billy Graham crusade because they will not associate with the broad mix of pastors that take part in the campaign. Perhaps you mean that your church is "evangelical".

[Lexinom]

Again, no argument. I feel much closer fellowship with Baptists who hold a different view of the covenant but believe the Bible than with liberals from the Christian Reformed Church who, though they profess to believe the same creed, have alas, wandered very far from the Shepherd.

The Pharisees had the externals down to a science.

I don't feel any inclination to defend any of the denominations you mentioned (WSL or REC, which I did attend for a year), since I don't belong to any of them but would worship - ideally - in a church with a very simple order of worship, with deep and penetrating, experiential preaching (both the expository and doctrinal kind), and singing before the Lord. The sacraments are faithfully administered (they are in the Bible). The flock is fed and God is glorified in the simple, biblical, hearfelt worship of His people.

Such churches are few indeed, perhaps signs we're close to the end... Oh, I do wish the Lord would come quickly!

[anncoulteriscool]

I'm sorry I geuss no ones allowed to disagree with you. You seem like an arrogant snob.

[TexanToTheCore]

Most hymns adopted tunes that were somewhat popular in their day. For instance, "Amazing Grace" (lyrics by John Newton, 1779)did not appear with its current tune until 1830 or thereabouts.

The tune is "New Britain" which (the tune) appeared in the tunebook "Columbian Harmony" in 1829.

Many of the older hymnals had just lyrics (no musical score)with a notation as to the metre. The pastor or music minister would match them up with a tune that had the same metre and present this as the hymn. If you attend a church that is older you can usually find them in the library. I believe they are still being published today, although not frequently.

I don't believe they teach this in our seminaries now, but a hundred years ago Pastors were taught how to write hymns as part of their training and they would join the lyrics with a more or less popular tune. Many of these hymns have made it into our hymnals of today, but many thousands of hymns have been lost because they were sung in only one church on one particular Sunday.

[TexanToTheCore]

I forgot to add that many hymnals still have an index by metre in the back that allows the Music Minister to change the tune at will. The last I saw was a rather current Presbyterian hymnal from which I sang two weeks ago.

[TexanToTheCore]

My experience was much the same, I attended a Presbyterian church that had lots of robes and official liturgy, but Jesus took a back seat to Che Guevara, Angela Davis and others of that ilk.

I was not being fed until I joined a Southern Baptist church and found Jesus. Boy.....I wish I had found the Bible based fundamentalism earlier in my life.

[TexanToTheCore]

"I suspect you are not using the term "fundamentalist" as it is usually used."

Yes I am. It may be different in other parts of the country but my Southern Baptist church (in the south) is quite fundie. As far as Billy Graham goes, he too is Southern Baptist and I am not aware of any churches that opposed to his use of many different ministers.

[Mr. Mojo]

ping

[AppyPappy]

Joel Osteen, is a favorite of mine, as he also tries to get people to live a God Centered Life

I know very little about him but something about him bugs me. I think it is the patterned blinking.

[FourPeas]

I believe you missed my point. In original post to which I replied you said:

...i [sic] really wonder how many people in these churches...
[snip]
And I suspect alot of people...

To which I replied:

You may wonder and suspect about many things, but unless you know them to be true, they're not valid criticisms.

Your reply:

I know them to be true.

And, finally I replied by quoting the above wonder/suspect statements and added:

Perhaps you understand my statement...?

First you said you wondered and suspected two things. I commented that unless you KNOW, it's not a valid criticism. You then responded that you now them to be true. I then pointed you back to the wonder/suspect statements.

I fail to see how this indicates that no one is allowed to disagree with me, nor that the term arrogant snob accurately describes me.

[TexanToTheCore]

To place a finer point on the reason many hymns were put to popular songs in the past is that most churches did not have hymnals until the mid 1800s or later. The technique used was for the pastor to shout the next line and the congregation to then sing it. This practice is called "Lined Hymnody" and was practiced by most all congregations that were not rich. This is much easier to do when the melody is known by the congregation.

We still do this in the latest form of contemporary Christian worship. Michael W. Smith will shout the starting words of the next section to his choir and I think it is a beautiful, beautiful addition to the worsip experience.

[CajunConservative]

Who is leading us away?

That would be satan, but we also must take the responsibility for ourselves. Sometimes it's just easier to go along with the emotionalism than it is to think, ponder and truly meditate on the deeper things of God.

I don't have a real problem with the contemporary worship style as long as the message is not watered down. That is what I have a problem with.

Who will lead us back?

The Holy Spirit will lead us and if get on our knees and earnestly seek God to lead, guide and direct us to where He would have us serve and worship Him we will find where we need to be.

Right now I just happen to be listening to Dennis Jernigan's Giant Killer: A Heart Like David, he's a praise and worship musician but his theology is sound. God just happened to use his music to speak to my heart and minister to me where I am at right now. I know that God is faithful and trust Him to show me the way.

[WillRain]

Who are you to pick and choose after which which attributes of God public worship is to be patterned? God is indeed love, but is also holy, righteous, just, merciful, omnipresent, omnipotent. God is ALL of these, at once and in equal measure. Being a mere mortal, this is difficult for man to accept, who mirrors these attributes according to the Divine image in him but only in a shadow-like, limited way. He gets angry, then sad, then glad. He flits from the one to the other.

You are correct if you hold the position that no one can absolutize an aesthetic. No one said that worship music must exclude instruments or incldue only the organ or piano. But music whose character stirs the kind of emotions one might get from a television commercial (e.g. Jack Hayford's "Majesty") fails the objective test of fitting with the Divine character.

I do agree that God has a right to expect worship on his terms. That said, I fail to follow your rational that some music might improperly stir emotions or fail to me an objective standard.

Please tell me where you find in the Bible an objective standard of proper worship music, and what current denomination or group adheres strictly to that definition?

Understand, if the standard arises from ones interpretation of Scripture or the implications one draws, this is not "objective" at all except "in the eye of the beholder."

[Poohbah]

Please tell me where you find in the Bible an objective standard of proper worship music

"Make a joyful noise unto the Lord..." comes to mind.

It says NOTHING about it having to be in key (c8