Patton: The Glory of War and its Limitations

Toogood Reports ^ | 28 September 2003 | Nicholas Stix

[mrustow]

Thanks for the historical background.

[arete]

When I look at today's politicians, whether they are appeasment-minded Dems or hawkish GOPers, all I see is a bunch of draft-dodgers.

Yeah, somehow joining the air guard to protect TX while the country was at war, might not have gone over well with Patton.

Richard W.

[mrustow]

He's great on the movie and should have stuck with that.

I think you're right. As another FReeper noted, the connection to today's debates seems a bit strained. The brilliant movie review within the billowing essay, is like the proverbial thin man trapped in a fat man's body.

The contrast between Patton and Bradley suggests that there are more options than Stix lets on.

I guess so -- I'll let you know what I think in a few years, after I've had sufficient time to study up on the matter!

[mrustow]

Our victory in Iraq was planned out by some leaders who studied their tactics. "There is nothing to be gained by a long protracted war" - Sun Tzu. And G.S.P. knew and studied tactics.

But do you know who G.S.P.'s first teacher of such things, a veteran of the 1861-1865, was?

His grandpappy?

[mrustow]

Another retired general is on the record as saying he would not vote for Clark because of character issues.

That was General H. Hugh Shelton, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff on 9/11. Check the FR keywords for stories listed under the category WEASELY for details.

Ahh! So that's who it was. I've never heard of one of these guys publicly attacking a comrade, and Shelton is not known, IIRC, for being a loose cannon.

[mrustow]

Thanks for the background. I 'll read up on both men. I'd heard of Forrest, but not of Cleburne. But what about Stonewall? (Obviously, I have NO Civil War experise.)

[mrustow]

Wow. But we really didn't have much choice, when it came to dealing with those countries. Like politics, war makes for strange bedfellows.

[mrustow]

When I look at today's politicians, whether they are appeasment-minded Dems or hawkish GOPers, all I see is a bunch of draft-dodgers.

Yeah, somehow joining the air guard to protect TX while the country was at war, might not have gone over well with Patton.

Richard W.

And I wish I could have been a fly on the wall, at the Bush retreat. What with Papa having been America's youngest bomber pilot, in WWII.

"What did you do, during the great World War II?"

Granted, it's not as catchy, but 'Did you fight or scram, during Vietnam?' Every man who ducked the draft, has the blood of 58,000 on his hands.

[archy]

Thanks for the background. I 'll read up on both men. I'd heard of Forrest, but not of Cleburne. But what about Stonewall? (Obviously, I have NO Civil War experise.)

Known- and interestingly NOT hated by his men for it, though it must have been hard on them- for treating his infantry as cavalry, using them as VERY fluid and mobile forces- indeed, his men were sometimes known as *foot cavalry.*

Had he only lived a little longer. I do not know if they would have had a different outcome or not. But they most certainly would have been more interesting.

You'll find a study of Pat Cleburne to be quite interesting. If I had the opportunity to go back to that time, to die alongside Cleburne at Franklin, or maybe survive the war with Forrest, I cannot say which I'd prefer. I suppose, like the soldiers of that day, I'd take whatever fate tossed my way. But I do believe I'd go.

-archy-/-

[Radioactive]

Andy Looney will soon be forgotten.

But General Patton will always live in history as the greatest general of all time.

[TheEngineer]

Thanks for the ping. An excellent article.

BTW, I've always been a history buff... And years ago I read both of the major biographies of Patton (Ladislas Farago's and Carlo De Este's). A brilliant, flamboyant, (and sometimes flawed) man.

The DVD is a must for any serious DVD collection, too. :-)

[Colt .45]

I know full well the folly of placing women in front line rolls. The military was looked at as a place for women to make their mark of equality with men by the Women's Rights groups in the 1970's, and pandering to N.O.W. and liberals by stupid politicians looking only to get elected after that. It has been THE number one absolute worst thing that has happened to the military in our country's history. The left has emasculated the military, and the leadership of the military up through the Clinton years were all about being afraid for their jobs. I.E. - they weren't being warriors. It is only because of the leadership of the upper enlisted ranks that the younger enlistees get any good training. Most officer types are too busy playing politician to really be a warrior.

[LibKill]

That speech is better than the movie speech, but it would never have made it past the movie censors in 1969.

I have this movie on DVD and I guess I'm going to watch it again today. (Only $12 at SuperWalMart, a real bargain)

[mrustow]

I don't miss that time, but folks did have a sense of honor that has sadly long since disappeared. In that respect, it might as well have been 1400, rather than 140 years ago.

[mrustow]

Andy Looney will soon be forgotten.

But General Patton will always live in history as the greatest general of all time.

Whenever I either stumble on to 60 Minutes or deliberately watch it, it never fails to dumbfound me, that that man gets paid over $500,000 per year for ... what is it they pay him for?

P.S. Rooney probably makes in one week, what Patton made in an entire year. It's a funny, old world.

[mrustow]

Glad you liked it. I'll be getting around to reading the bios and purchasing the DVD ... eventually.

[91B]

Ooh, ooh, ooh-I know, I know. Won't come right out and say his name in case anybody else wants to play, but I will say that this person's memory is today just a grey ghost to most people ;-)

[archy]

I don't miss that time, but folks did have a sense of honor that has sadly long since disappeared. In that respect, it might as well have been 1400, rather than 140 years ago.

I don't know if we can ever really fully understand the total combination of society, conditions, equipment and politics that influence the conduct of a war, particularly one before our time; some of the reenactors who immerse themselves in their particular impressions may get pretty close.

Certainly the coming of total industrialized war that came with Plevna, the American War Between the States, and the Crimea brought a considerable change from the conduct of war as a chivalrous activity; and Patton pretty well put the final punctuation mark to that era. Since then it's been either technical war that can eventually end with a nuclear finale, or the little guy with a two-dollar plastic shower cloth, a pair of sneakers and a $50 AK47 who set the tone, and neither seems to have developed into enterprises of those forces requiring a Patton to direct them. We may not see the like of GSP and his 3rd Army again. But nothing is impossible.

-archy-/-

[archy]

Ooh, ooh, ooh-I know, I know. Won't come right out and say his name in case anybody else wants to play, but I will say that this person's memory is today just a grey ghost to most people ;-)

Yep. It was photographer William Wegman and his beautiful and talented Weimaraner dog, Man Ray.

[mrustow]

I know full well the folly of placing women in front line rolls. The military was looked at as a place for women to make their mark of equality with men by the Women's Rights groups in the 1970's, and pandering to N.O.W. and liberals by stupid politicians looking only to get elected after that. It has been THE number one absolute worst thing that has happened to the military in our country's history. The left has emasculated the military, and the leadership of the military up through the Clinton years were all about being afraid for their jobs. I.E. - they weren't being warriors. It is only because of the leadership of the upper enlisted ranks that the younger enlistees get any good training. Most officer types are too busy playing politician to really be a warrior.

Imagine a Patton in this woman's army! He never would have led our boys in Iraq, because he would have been set up by a Claudia Kennedy type, and forced into retirement long before that. Feminists have sought to take over every American institution, and so far, they're batting damned close to 1.000. That has a lot to do with Muslims thinking that American men are all p-----s.