IBM to launch Linux technology center in south China

China Daily ^ | Sept 23, 1003 | Xinhua

[Golden Eagle]

Simple. Unix has an associated cost for every single license which is "sold", unlike Linux which is most commonly downloaded for free. Unix has typically also required proprietary hardware, again more expensive than cheap Intel clones built in the 3rd world.

Look at the figures from IDC/Gartner/Dataquest. Total Unix revenues have in some cases fallen by hundreds of millions of dollars, and while that market share was mostly lost to Linux, Linux related revenue only returned ~1/5 of former Unix dollars to our tech economy.

There's plenty of evidence of this, such as those links in post 165, and there is plenty of supporting commmentary as well such as this piece:

"while Linux is the most attractive bandwagon in years, it is not one that will quickly make them rich...Linux has now become the second most popular operating system for servers, which is 25% of the 5.4 million total copies of operating system software...More significantly, Linux shipments were greater than those for all types of Unix...But where is the profit for vendors? The uncomfortable reality is that sales of Linux brought in only $32 million for the whole year – less than 1% of the $5.7 billion server OS market."

http://www.cbronline.com/print_friendly/7df06d7cab1aed8d80256d350047d466

The dollars in that article are purely software dollars (don't go getting all confused again) but the point remains clear: Linux has a huge market share, but it's return dollars to our economy is paltry compared to Unix. Not to mention all the US high tech advancements that are being given away to the rest of the world via the open sourcing of the code.

[Golden Eagle]

Hackers are what are a danger to US National Security, like the Chinese group "X-Focus" which open sourced the blaster code to the internet. Interesting how you'd like to give them a free pass, although surprising to no one.

[RightOnline]

Now let me tell you what that ignores. The trend away from proprietary UNIX systems began with Windows NT, not Linux. I know, for I was smack in the middle of it. You have to look at total Intel (and now, with the Opteron coming on, AMD) systems being sold into "traditionally UNIX" markets. Microprocessor-based systems will, by default, be less expensive (speaking generally here). What you are referring to is the average cost per system.........so the average revenue per system, and hence average profit per system.........has been decreasing. That's undeniably true, and Linux merely helped to expand the proliferation of UNIX code into the microprocessor-based systems realm. There were a fair number of industries that remained on UNIX systems, for the lack of adequate 64-bit processors in the microprocessor world (and the accompanying lack of addressable memory) precluded users in the EDA, oil and gas, life sciences, and other areas to switch entirely to such commodity hardware. Again, even that is changing now.............the Itanium 2, the AMD Opteron...........64-bit versions of SuSE, and soon, Red Hat.......not to mention XP..........all are helping that transition.

Cost per user has been a driving force in the end-user community as long as I've been in computers. As the cost per user drops, that means.......on paper.........that you cut your system costs. While that's true, it also means (in reality) that you can put more systems in front of more people......or buy more servers than you could otherwise when you were paying choking prices for UNIX boxes.

It also fails to address the significantly lower average system life span in the microprocessor based systems community. There is FAR more turnover due to technological obsolescence, so more systems get purchased by far than if the end user is using proprietary UNIX systems. Again, that's just a fact. Example: the average Linux cluster (not a cheap rig) has a life span of only 18 months.

Therefore, it's wholly disingenuous to lay the declining UNIX revenues entirely on Linux, and then try to point to it as a reason for our IT industry going to hell worldwide. You have to look at a MUCH larger picture, and you can believe that systems vendors have known this for years and have reacted accordingly (the smart ones, that is). Go to a manufacturer that builds / sells both.......and compare revenues from microprocessor-based servers, workstations, etc. to the revenue from their proprietary UNIX systems sales. It's quite telling.

[Coral Snake]

Put down the crack pipe and get with the PROGRAM. The age of companies like Micro$soft building houmongous fortunes through FASCIST VENDOR LOCK IN, UPGRADE TREADMILLS, SOFTWARE RENTAL and PAPERHANGING THEIR OWN STOCK is OVER thanks to:

LINUX AND OPEN SOURCE,

GET USED TO IT!!!

[Golden Eagle]

That's undeniably true...

Is this RightOnline posting this? Doesn't sound like them. Maybe the point is getting through. Thanks at least for laying off the insults for once.

Linux merely helped to expand the proliferation of UNIX code into the microprocessor-based systems realm...

Nothing a US operating system couldn't have done, if more people in the US were behind it. Support Apple how about, istead of letting them die like they are. Or if Unix is your favorite, then support Unix and help Sun with their new x86 version. And, did you somehow forget that poorly SCO has always had an x86 version? That IBM was supposed to be helping them improve along with Sequent? Why do you think they choose to rename the company S-C-O? Simply to remind everyone who they were. You may not have liked who Santa Cruz was, and it wasn't the best Unix we had either, but it does run on Intel. We used them some, along with Solaris and Irix, but the main thing was those companies were American. That may be more important to me, and my employer(s), but that is the way it is and should be as far as I am concerned, so I am not about to apologize for it. And I fully support a SCO/IBM version of Intel compatible *nix, which could have remained closed source for our national security as well. But IBM is jepardizing it IMO with their recent actions.

you can put more systems in front of more people......or buy more servers than you could otherwise when you were paying choking prices for UNIX boxes.

You really believe that pipe dream? The CFO's are looking to cut IT budgets any way they can, and if they can squeeze it for a few more dollars to spend on other worthwhile projects they will. A declining tech economy is not good for the country, and especially not good for those who work at it. Especially if we are shipping this stuff overseas, like our source code, over the internet, for not a nickel's return in most cases.

Therefore, it's wholly disingenuous to lay the declining UNIX revenues entirely on Linux, and then try to point to it as a reason for our IT industry going to hell worldwide.

It most certainly is not. It is a very legitimate concern, and one I will continue to draw attention to. If it makes you uncomfortable, sorry, but we are loosing tons of overall IT dollars over this, along with our technology by it being "open sourced" to every country in the world, which is likely of even greater concern.

You have to look at a MUCH larger picture, and you can believe that systems vendors have known this for years and have reacted accordingly (the smart ones, that is). Go to a manufacturer that builds / sells both.......and compare revenues from microprocessor-based servers, workstations, etc. to the revenue from their proprietary UNIX systems sales. It's quite telling.

ROFLMAO!!! Your final statement, you STILL believe Linux brings more income than Unix? I already showed you multiple links confirming where Sun's income alone is $1 Billion dollars per quarter more than all Linux income. Believe whatever you want, but quit arguing about it, the numbers couldn't be any more clear (and you any more wrong). Check HP too, they probably bring in $1 billion per quarter on Unix, and $100 million if that on Linux. But go ahead, keep arguing the same point, haven't stopped yet.

[Bush2000]

It would seem that the EXPERTS dissagree with the ANTI LINUX BLOWHARDS on these FR tech threads.

You aren't kidding, are you? Even you can't be that gullible, can you? These so-called "EXPERTS" (CCIA) are lobbyists for Sun, AOL, Oracle, and other Microsoft competitors. This "study" is a paid infomercial. And you're gullible enough to report this as news?!? Puh-leaassssssssssse....

[Bush2000]

A declining tech economy is not good for the country, and especially not good for those who work at it. Especially if we are shipping this stuff overseas, like our source code, over the internet, for not a nickel's return in most cases.

What do these losers expect? They're giving away America's technical prowess to Third World countries for free, thus making it possible to eliminate American jobs. If this trend continues, they won't even have time to drink their free beer because they'll be looking for jobs of their own...

[Golden Eagle]

They're giving away America's technical prowess to Third World countries for free...

Exactly what it is doing, but most of these guys can't see past their own billfold, and apparently how little is in it.

[RightOnline]

You're still full of yourself, aren't you? You still grossly misunderstand everything I've tried NICELY to explain to you. You misquoted me, you fail to understand the difference between sale of microprocessor-based systems vs. UNIX systems (not all microprocessor-based systems are running Linux........got that straight yet?).

YOU, friend, are a lost cause. You still think you know what you are talking about, and that's just fine. You go right ahead. You don't. Not in the slightest. I make my living this way, and I watch the worldwide markets very closely, and I'm selling the living s**t out of my product around the world. I'm damned good at what I do, and I enjoy what I do, and the thing that pisses me off the most is that I have wasted so much time with you. Still, enough have read this discussion that can clearly SEE the above, so there is use in that.

So, since you are the uneducated who chooses to remain uneducable..........post any more threads equating Linux with un-American activities, and you'll continue to be shown for exactly what you are. In the meantime, arguing with rocks isn't my style. Off to enjoy the fruits of my labor............so you have yourself a ducky evening.

[Coral Snake]

All you have to do to find out why Golden Eagle and his recently arrived ally Bush2000 are so uneducatable is click on the hyperlink words "here" in post 161 and "ANTI LINUX BLOWHARDS" in post 200 of this thread. Don't feel insulted when you see what these hyperlink to because I am only applying it to the afore mentioned anti Linux blowhards, NOT YOU.
I hope your discontinuance of trying to educate Golden Eagle does not mean that you are leaving the tech threads at FR entirely because you are one of the more interesting posters here with your vast actual experience in the industry.

[Golden Eagle]

Let's just hope all those source open systems you are selling are all being used for noble causes. Highly advanced computer systems, especially those with high customization capabilities, need to closely guarded properties and not sold on the street in every rogue state, especially when it is a money losing equation compared to our current distribution methods. Unix intellectual property and hardware is a valuable portion of the overall tech economy (has more total $ income than either Windows or Linux, despite selling less copies than either), and should not be sold out over a few PC sales.

If you want a cheap *nix product, use Solaris x86 Unix for $20 bucks a client and $200 bucks a multiprocessor server, closed source that protects our IP and gives money back to the US economy. Sorry if that breaks you or your customers budget.

[Coral Snake]

It's a little FReepMail secret between him and me but there is a VERY GOOD REASON why RightOnline can not reccomend Sun or Apple products to his customers. ;-)

[Golden Eagle]

There's other US options. SCO runs on Intel. And it's not $699!

[Coral Snake]

SCO!!! No one in their right mind would pick that aging piece of junk that is in all probability only kept going by stolen GPL code in its "Linux Kernel Personality" module. Perhaps it is WE who should be suing Darl McBride and NOT the other way around as it currently is.

[Coral Snake]

O and by the way:

CSBITAIALMAO!!!

And you will NEVER be allowed to know why that last post of yours is so funny, SCO indeed!!!

[RightOnline]

"Let's just hope all those source open systems you are selling are all being used for noble causes."

You think all those UNIX systems sold around the world for decades are all being used for "noble causes"? Whose "noble causes"? Want to go track UNIX systems sold by European or Japanese companies for the past 25+ years?

Dream worlds don't cut it.

[Coral Snake]

If he knew who you work for Golden Eagle would really WHP and whine. But I'm keeping it a secret.

[Dominic Harr]

If you want a cheap *nix product, use Solaris x86 Unix for $20 bucks a client and $200 bucks a multiprocessor server, closed source that protects our IP and gives money back to the US economy.

Buy Solaris 'cuz Sun needs the money?

Is that how markets work?

From my point of view, the entire concept is moot. Most of those "lost dollars in sales" are "cost savings by clients". With the expensive Unices, you pay thru the nose over and over for each machine. With Linux, you save money. More bang for the buck. More profit for the company, less money spent on IT.

And just to vote on the hot topic, I don't think anyone takes Golden Eagle seriously. There's *definitely* an agenda there, and it ain't Patriotism.

[Coral Snake]

Sorry but it was WINDOWS SPAM again. I'm currently doing some software programming in that invironment and that was why I used it here.

Guns, Linux and Liberty ;c)

[Coral Snake]

Because Pentium Kernels are OPTIMIZED for Pentium II and higher. This question shows that While you may be some "big
boss" or marketing droid where you work you know ANSOLUTELY
NOTHING about coding and programming per se.

Guns, Linux and Liberty ;c)