Srebrenica Casualty Numbers Challenged by Experts as Politicized and Ethnically Divisive

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/decani/message/77206 ^ | September 20, 2003 | The International Strategic Studies Association (ISSA)

[mark502inf]

You must also remember the Serbs have every right to defend their homes ... you will fire back with fury, wont you?

Absolutely, it is OK to defend yourself. When the USA was attacked on 9-11, we fired back "with fury", but not indiscriminately. We bombed Taliban military positions, our special forces chased Al Qaeda into the mountains, and our infantry is still conducting raids and searches for the remnants. But we didn't slaughter Taliban prisoners, we didn't execute Afghan farmers, and we didn't bombard or burn down villages and villagers. And that is the difference.

[Ronly Bonly Jones]

I have the pictures. I don't want to dishonor the dead by giving you any pleasure.

Remember, you have it backwards. YOU guys have to convince US, not the other way around.

[Ronly Bonly Jones]

I'll betcha the earth is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, and Bosnian Serbs are innocent of genocide. Chances of all are about the same.

[Ronly Bonly Jones]

Addendum: Bosnian Serb ARMY, particularly the V (Podrinje) Corps. Or should that be 'corpse'?

[kosta50]

YOU guys have to convince US, not the other way around

Wrong -- again! You have to prove your tall stories. Otherwise, retract them! If you don't have the pictures, lets see the lists. All 4000+/-15.

[Hoplite]

My experiences as an M-60 gunner in light infantry units in the US Army, while relevant to the discussion, do not serve as the basis of the factual evidence contrary to your position, Kosta.

Machine guns, when mounted upon stabilization devices, such as tripods, and equipped with sighting devices, such as scopes, can become very accurate weapons.

I have referenced you to Carlos Hathcock's feat with an M-2, and there is further evidence of that weapon's use as a sniper weapon on the FAS site:

The M2 machine gun on the M3 tripod provided a very stable firing platform. Together with its slow rate of fire and its traversing and elevating mechanism, the M2 was used to a very limited extent as a sniper weapon during the Vietnam war at fixed installations such as firebases. Snipers prefired the weapons at identifiable targets and worked the data into range cards insuring increased first-round accuracy.

The weapon shown being used by Karadzic and Limonov is on a tripod, and has a scope - it therefore posesses two of the qualities needed for accurate long range shooting: the ability to acquire the target, and a stable base from which to engage it from.

While I doubt that Limonov or Karadzic posessed the requisite skill to utilize the weapon shown to the extent of it's capabilities, the fact remains that the weapon shown, in the hands of a skilled operator, could do just what the Bosnian Serbs did in Sarajevo for 4 years, being the murder of civilians over long distances, shooting down from the hills surrounding the city.

You have been talking out of school, Kosta, you were Military Intelligence (if memory serves), and should know better than to simply state your opinion as fact, and continue to do so in the face of evidence to the contrary.

[kosta50]

But we didn't slaughter Taliban prisoners, we didn't execute Afghan farmers, and we didn't bombard or burn down villages and villagers. And that is the difference

Hmmm, we weren't so accurate when it came to bombing Serbia. And civilian losses in Afghanistan were a real source of concern and embarrassment for us, if I remember correctly. Never mind that, under our watch, several dozen Taliban suffocated to death in container trucks. And we don't (conveniently) count Iraqi civilian deaths.

But, in all fairness, it is not our policy to target civilians, execute prisoners, shoot up a family in a car by trigger-happy and scared young men and women in harms way, but it happens because that's what war does, even if you are careful. My Lai is a perfect example that even the world's leading democracy is subject to man's failings. Can we expect more from others?

[kosta50]

Hoplite, if you look carefully at the picture, you will notice that the machine gun in question has a tailstock. If memory serves me (and you right), a 0.50 cal doesn't for obvious reasons. I would therefore conclude that the weapon in question is not a 0.50 cal "sniper," but closer to something you used, except on a heavier tripod. The footage of Radovan shooting the weapon shows that he did not possess the skills of a fine marksman with that machine gun. His fire seemed indiscriminate. I don't know if non-combatants were in those buildings, or if the buldings were abandoned, so I can't pass a judgemnt other than that any such undisciplined firing is highly irresponsable and -- coming from a high political figure -- reprehensable.

The gun like that one was used to fire on Bosnian Muslim positions and, yes, people who wore civilian clothes died. Many of them carried weapons, and were not really civilians. Others were innocent people, even kids, heartlessly caught in someone's cross -- on both sides, Hoplite, let's not forget that.

[Hoplite]

anyone who has been in the military knows that anything firing on automatic (see the stacked bullets) is not a precision weapon.

I take it from your response that we have cleared this up - I referenced the M2 as an example of a machine gun employed in the sniper role.

The weapon in question is a Zastava M84 (thanks to Mark502Inf) and my comments as to it's effectiveness, when configured properly, as a long range weapon stand.

Lastly, the Bosnian Serb sniping campaign against civilians, carried out in conjunction with and concurrently with a military campaign against Sarajevo's defenders is too well documented to bring into question, Kosta. Please do not do so.

[Hoplite]

Shall we ignore you?

Yes, we shall.

[kosta50]

Hoplite, we have cleared it up -- on M2, a .50 cal. machine gun capable of firing a single round. Equipped with a rifle scope and an effective range of about 2,000 yards, it was -- according to your own source -- listed as a rarely used sniper weapon.

The weapon pictured in your post showing Radovan Karadzhich aiming it, is not a .50 cal. weapon, and is not capable of firing single shots and therefore cannot be used as a long-range sniper rifle.

The Zastava M84 is a 7.62 mm (.30 cal) machine gun, based on the Soviet PKM design, and is capable of short bursts of 10 rounds, and is therefore ideal for sweeping fire cover rather than "sniper" precision shots. Although its range is 1,500 meters, it's effective against open targets up to 1,000 meters, but best suited for targets at 600 meters (perhaps you can provide some details as to how far the Serbs-Muslim lines were from the location where Karadzhich was filmmed).

I hope we have cleared this up, and hopefully you can admit that your claim was incorrect about Radovan the "sniper."

Civilians were targetted by heartless people on both sides, Hoplite. I believe there is evidence of that too. But since both of us hopefully are not questioning it, we really don't want to go there, you are right.

[Hoplite]

is not capable of firing single shots

Because Serbs are too stupid to put bullets in one at a time, or because they are too clumsy to operate the trigger so as to only fire one round at a time?

You're out of your depth here, Kosta.

Furthermore, this isn't about single shot operation, it's about effectively hitting a target over long distances using an automatic weapon, which, in this particular case corresponds to civilians in Sarajevo being targeted by machine guns on the hills surrounding it.

[mark502inf]

Hmmm, we weren't so accurate when it came to bombing Serbia ... But, in all fairness, it is not our policy to target civilians, execute prisoners, shoot up a family in a car by trigger-happy and scared young men and women in harms way, but it happens because that's what war does, even if you are careful. My Lai is a perfect example that even the world's leading democracy is subject to man's failings. Can we expect more from others?

Missing your target or misidentifying a target in combat are mistakes, not crimes. Isolated and rare atrocities committed by combatants are exactly as you put it: "man's failings" and not indicative of a nation's policies nor its military strategy.

However, what occurred at Srebrenica was organized and deliberate mass murder of prisoners committed by Serb forces--very different than a mistake made by a stressed out young soldier on a battlefield trying to make life or death decisions in a split second.

[mark502inf]

Cowboy, the primary purpose of the M84 is as you described--to provide a high volume of automatic fire for area coverage. However, the M84 is constructed to be accurate out to 1000 meters firing standard ammunition. The problems at that range are limitations in target acquisition and aiming imposed by the naked eye as well as round dispersal caused by recoil effect. The scope fixes the first problem, the tripod fixes the second. So, as configured in the photo, it could be an effective weapon against point targets at long range--a sniper rifle equivalent.

I suspect from your posts that you have armor experience. Think of how much more accurate a coaxial machine gun in a tank is versus the same type fired by an infantryman. The difference is based on the fixed & completely steady mount of the MG in the tank as well as the gunner's highpowered sights.

And we know the difference cannot be attributed to human factors, since infantry soldiers are unquestionably a higher level life-form than tankers.