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Srebrenica Casualty Numbers Challenged by Experts as Politicized and Ethnically Divisive
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/decani/message/77206 ^ | September 20, 2003 | The International Strategic Studies Association (ISSA)

Posted on 09/21/2003 8:34:13 AM PDT by joan

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To: judywillow
I know what you mean about the Serbs standing up to clinton. Anybody who will do that, goes to the top of my "LIKE" list.

What came as a real shocker to me was that those mujahadeen came from all over the muslim world and fought Christians in the Balkans. And, some were al querda. Plus, the muslims in the Balkans received funding from TERRORISTS IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

JUST DAMN.

clinton was on snooze control when the muslims were sneaking in the FRONT door of the USA and he is the reason those terrorists succeeded on 9/11.

HE IS AT FAULT!

Hanging is too good for people like him... but since he is akin to satan... he gets away with it.... for now. But not for eternity.

261 posted on 09/29/2003 11:37:08 AM PDT by Lion in Winter
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To: alternatediscourse
Could that US civilian worker be one of those so called "charity" types who was in the Balkans distributing (al querda?) money to the muslims?

Some guy in Chicago is going to jail for doing just that isn't he.

262 posted on 09/29/2003 11:40:47 AM PDT by Lion in Winter
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To: Ronly Bonly Jones
The only thing that makes your hatred of Muslims tolerable is the fact that you don't have the same means of expressing it that certain Serbs did during the war.

Here's a challenge for you. I dare you to go back through my entire history of postings and find even one sentence that I've written that be interpretted as hatred of Muslims. Good luck.

I was born and raised in the shadows of the steel mills on the southeast side of Chicago. If I really hated someone, all I'd have to do is make a phone call and they go bye bye. Fortunately my grandmother taught me that it's wrong to hate another human being. Hell, I don't even hate Jerry Manuel.

263 posted on 09/29/2003 11:44:48 AM PDT by getoffmylawn (Strong like bull. Smart like tractor.)
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To: Hoplite
Not exactly.

All the "most recent" information - including the amazing "success" the US Air Force had against their "civilian and military targets" in the Kosovo/Serb areas was fabricated.

Clinton/Clark's NATO (previously PEACEKEEPERS! in Europe) bombers had spent months blowing up dummy (rubber) tanks and wooden (fake) trucks and anti-air guns from high altitude.

But killing thousands of civilians.
264 posted on 09/29/2003 11:45:48 AM PDT by Robert A Cook PE (I can only support FR by donating monthly, but ABBCNNBCBS continue to lie every day!)
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE
Not exactly what?

Tell me - are you going to parrot the anti-American left when they tell you of the horrific casualties (exaggerated, just like in your example) in Iraq or Afghanistan?

Mind where you get your information - Milosevic's State Prosecutor wound up using HRW's casualty count for civilians during Allied Force - 504, rather than toeing the line and using whatever numbers sounded good, as you are doing here.

It remains to be seen how effective our airstrikes were - Serbia has not, to this day, posted an accurate tally of either civilians or military casualties during Allied Force that I am aware of.

Something tells me you don't have any better information on the subject, do you?

265 posted on 09/29/2003 12:34:50 PM PDT by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite
Something tells me that the Albanian "refugee convoy strike" was intentionally committed for multitude reasons.

You are a Racak LIAR, phony!

266 posted on 09/29/2003 12:47:09 PM PDT by alternatediscourse (Magnificent Seven - 1 of 7 - Ghosts)
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To: Lion in Winter
I know what you mean about the Serbs standing up to clinton. Anybody who will do that, goes to the top of my "LIKE" list.

Since that's your criteria, the Lion "LIKE" list also includes Saddam Hussein, Muamar Aideed, and bin Laden as well as Milosevic. Remember, you're known by the company you keep.

267 posted on 09/29/2003 2:12:21 PM PDT by mark502inf
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To: mark502inf
Remember, you're known by the company you keep.

And you, Hoplite, and RBJ are now known primarily for your blind support of the al Qaeda-supported, dope-dealing KLA. Funny world, isn't it.

And I've never supported Milosevic! LOL!

268 posted on 09/29/2003 2:24:21 PM PDT by FormerLib (There's no hope on the left!)
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Comment #269 Removed by Moderator

To: mark502inf
Cool it with the personal attacks.
270 posted on 09/29/2003 2:38:00 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
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To: judywillow
What I do know is that during the eight-year reign of terror of the Clinton administration, only two groups of people to my knowledge ever tried to stand up to the beast and face it down, and that was Slobodan Milosevic and his Serbs, and the Mormons in Utah. That has to rate respect.

You left a few people out, judy: bin Laden, Aideed, & Saddam Hussein. In fact, Aideed not only faced down Clinton, he won. And bin Laden & Hussein could make a good argument that during the Clinton administration they were winning, too. Those guys must send the needle on your respect-meter way off the scale!

271 posted on 09/29/2003 4:25:20 PM PDT by mark502inf
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To: judywillow
We cannot even have a nice posting between us without that horrid pest interjecting a personal attack against us. We are not even the Serbs he hates so much. Heck, like you I don't know any.

You and I, are BUSH supporters. My late wife thought the Bush family was one of the finest in the entire country. She had met some of them years and years ago when she visited members of her family in Maine. She was for the elder BUSH back in the 1970s. She always tried to convince me but a I was a Reagan supporter back then. Oh, well that is history now.

clinton is such an evil monster. clark is one of his minions.

When I think of how billjclinton left the USA so open to attack by some of the same people who helped his allies, the bosnian and albanian muslims.... it is enough to make me ill.

BUSH will use this against clark... and by default the clintons.

272 posted on 09/29/2003 4:58:40 PM PDT by Lion in Winter
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To: getoffmylawn
please, God... don't let the Cubs win the World Series. I don't want to have to leave Chicago

Plan to live your entire life in Chicago!

are as sure that Racak was a set up as you claim Ranta is sure that Serbs murdered Albanians under their control

Not just Ranta, but HRW,witnesses,international police, etc. Not going to go over all the evidence again--its been beat to death. But as to the premise that it was Albanian on Albanian, the behavior of the relatives and friends who were witnesses is inconsistent with that theory.

In other cases of Alb on Alb killings, witnesses who were family to the killed use some roundabout way of informing on the killers or work the blood feud. They don't blame the Serbs.

If some unrelated Albs from down the road or the KLA boys come forward and tell you that the Serbs did it, then have some skepticism. But as those who know the Albanian culture understand, the ties to the clan trump all other loyalties. They will do what they can to get at the killers.

At Racak, the relatives who witnessed what happened are not in feud with other Albanians over those killings. None have directly or indirectly named other Albanians. Instead, they have told a consistent story of what the Serbs did on that day. The Albanian adherence to established cultural patterns of behavior is well known--in this case it provides strong backing to all the other evidence of Serb guilt at Racak.

273 posted on 09/29/2003 6:03:53 PM PDT by mark502inf
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To: getoffmylawn
there's been much too much "the Serbs are evil" and not nearly enough criticism of their incompetent and outdated tactics of counter-insurgency

Great point; although when you look at the Serb paramilitaries, its hard to see any daylight between them and evil. However, you are right on the mark when it comes to the Yugo army.

When fighting the KLA, their outmoded doctrine & poorly trained small unit leaders prevented them from executing the precise fire and maneuver necessary to close with and destroy guerilla forces. Instead, they stood off and used high volumes of fire--usually of little effect against the KLA who slipped away, but likely to cause significant damage to civilians and their homes and livestock and so on. And of course that had the effect of nudging the affected locals further along the spectrum from staying out of the way to sympathizers to supporters to fighters.

I observed many of the same problems, but even more pronounced, at first hand when the Macedonian military was fighting the ethnic Albanian extremists in FYROM in 2001.

An unfortunate side effect of sending an unprepared military to fight a guerilla opponent is that frustration rises rapidly with realization of the ineffectiveness of your tactics; especially if you are also taking casualties. And that frustration provides a fertile breeding ground for atrocities--especially when combined with a lack of professional junior leaders who can enforce discipline. Think My Lai.

Interestingly, Serb tactics the year before last in the Presevo region seemed much improved--constant day & night operations, dispersed small unit patrolling & ambushes. So they're studying lessons learned and getting better. Hopefully they'll next use that stuff for real working with us in the Mid-East!

274 posted on 09/29/2003 7:12:49 PM PDT by mark502inf
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To: alternatediscourse
Would it shock you that I dated a practicing Muslim woman and even brought her to my Church on our Eastern Orthodox Easter services?>>

I could call you a liar, like you call me every time I say something, but I won't. Fact is, I believe you. Moral consistency has never been your strong suit. Besides, I'm well familiar with the old Southern attitude: "OUR blacks are OK, its all them OTHER blacks that are the problem." Serbs had the same attitude toward the Muslims. Generally speaking, the Serbs in the war didn't kill the Muslims they knew, living next door. Outsiders came and did it.
275 posted on 09/30/2003 3:27:08 AM PDT by Ronly Bonly Jones
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To: FormerLib
No, it's a stupid world, if you think that the Muslims in Bosnia deserved what they got. And stupid is as stupid says, here at FR.

I don't support the KLA in the least. I'm just saying that the Serbia they fought against was monstrous and inhabited by amoral monsters who killed huge numbers of people for no reason other than to steal the fridge.
276 posted on 09/30/2003 3:30:49 AM PDT by Ronly Bonly Jones
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To: mark502inf
An unfortunate side effect of sending an unprepared military to fight a guerilla opponent is that frustration rises rapidly with realization of the ineffectiveness of your tactics; especially if you are also taking casualties. And that frustration provides a fertile breeding ground for atrocities--especially when combined with a lack of professional junior leaders who can enforce discipline. Think My Lai. >>

'Ceptin My Lai was never *policy.* Fact is, about three or four weeks before the fall of Srebrenica, the BSA strategic leadership gathered together for a staff meeting that went something like this: "This briefing concerns Plan Black, our operation to carry out the total elimination of the Bosnian Muslim military capabilities, which will be commenced upon completion of the fall of Srebrenica. It involves a battalion of special police units who will execute the prisoners and use 25 pieces of earth moving equipment to bury the corpses. Next slide please."

The thing generating the "Serbs Are Evil" posts (which they aren't; only those who committed the war crimes are--but thems a LOT of people) is the YOU'RE A MUSLIM! YOU'RE A MUSLIM! YOU'RE A MUSLIM! chant that certain twits scream here anytime anyone doesn't type the lyrics to the Serbian national anthem.
277 posted on 09/30/2003 3:38:21 AM PDT by Ronly Bonly Jones
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To: FormerLib
inhabited by amoral monsters who killed huge numbers of people for no reason other than to steal the fridge.>>

For clarity:

inhabited by SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS of amoral monsters who killed huge numbers of people for no reason other than to steal the fridge.



278 posted on 09/30/2003 3:40:09 AM PDT by Ronly Bonly Jones
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To: Ronly Bonly Jones
For clarity:

inhabited by SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS of amoral monsters who killed huge numbers of people for no reason other than to steal the fridge.

Sounds to me like the Serbs had basically made a realistic assessment of what they were dealing with, and were trying to deal with it in a rational manner.

Aside from that, I've got $20 says "Ronly Ronly" is your real name.

279 posted on 09/30/2003 8:02:41 AM PDT by martianagent
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To: Ronly Bonly Jones
...if you think that the Muslims in Bosnia deserved what they got...

I've already stated my opinion on that for the record.

It would have been better for all parties to have let them self-determine instead of forcing them at gunpoint to remain part of the fiction that is Bosnia.

280 posted on 09/30/2003 8:37:16 AM PDT by FormerLib (There's no hope on the left!)
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