Millions refuse U.S. Citizenship

Miami Herald ^ | 09/18/03 | ALFONSO CHARDY

[exmarine]

I think you will find that there is very little theological difference between Catholics and Anglicans/Episcopalians (none at all really), who were by far the greater part of the founding fathers. These are very different from the Calvinists/Lutherans and other sects inclined to Biblical literalism.

No difference between cathlics and episcopaleans? I beg to differ. For one thing, EP's were not loyal to the tyrant in Rome. The Anglican church was protestant - it broke away from the Pope during the reign of Henry VIII. Keep squirming. Again, calvinists SETTLED this land and the tradition was calvinist.

Biblical literalism? You mean, people who take the bible seriously? If a Christian does not believe all of the bible, then he has no authority outside of mankind, and no divine guide for his life. Tell me, how does Christ exercise His Lordship over someone who doesn't believe the bible? By listening to the Pope perhaps?

[buwaya]

Absolutely, other than on the question of church governance there is very little to distinguish the churches (Catholic and Episcopalian/Anglican).

They read the Bible the same way, albeit using different authorized versions, they both use reason to interpret the Bible as a whole, they are not literal readers thereof, they do not subscribe to doctrines like predestination et. al., even in the matter of ceremony they are very similar.

There are even regular conversions of clergy back and forth. There have been more than on semi-serious campaigns to re-integrate the churches, always failing on the issue of governance.

[Modernman]

The Anglican church was protestant - it broke away from the Pope during the reign of Henry VIII

The Anglican Church broke away at swordpoint because Henry wanted to get divorced. There was no greater principle in play in that situation.

For one thing, EP's were not loyal to the tyrant in Rome

That's what it comes down to, essentially: Anti-Catholic bigotry. So, assuming arguendo, that I agree with everything you've said so far about this being a Calvinist country- what's the point? No Protestant denomination is dominant in this nation now- if anything, Catholics are. What's your beef? Are you saying that only Calvinists/Protestants are true Christians? That only Calvinists/Protestants are allowed freedom of religion in this country? What's the point of all this? You do realize that your views constitute a fringe viewpoint in this country, right?

[buwaya]

As a minor matter, Calvinists settled SOME of this land.

Anglicans/Episcopalians settled a great deal more of it.

[Modernman]

Biblical literalism? You mean, people who take the bible seriously? If a Christian does not believe all of the bible, then he has no authority outside of mankind, and no divine guide for his life. Tell me, how does Christ exercise His Lordship over someone who doesn't believe the bible? By listening to the Pope perhaps

Biblical literalism= believing everything in the bible is literally true (i.e. God made the universe in seven days) which is, and will continue to be, a fringe view among even American Protestants.

[Modernman]

Since you have no evidence that it isn't a fact, you can't prove it isn't. One thing is certain - they overcame imposisble odds - victory was a miracle

Sorry- that's not how logic works. You're the one trying to say that God was guiding the FF. The onus is on you to prove it. I could just as easily say that space aliens were guiding them: But, wait, since you have no evidence that isn't a fact, you can't prove it isn't.

[exmarine]

As a minor matter, Calvinists settled SOME of this land. Anglicans/Episcopalians settled a great deal more of it.

Not quite true to say "most." The puritans/pilgrims and quakers are responsible for settling most of everything above virginia and New England was far and away more populated than the southern colonies. Also, again, Anglicans/Episc. are protestants, so what if they aren't calvinists. I don't care. It's a quibble. They were protestant Christians nonetheless. The fact remains that calvinist principles were adopted into our government - depravity of mankind, self-governance (dual system). Argue with the facts.

[buwaya]

And all this proves what exactly ?

That some of these people were clergymen ? That these people were peculiarly devout ?

I could just as easily show that the Dutch Republic rested on the broad shoulders of devout genuine Calvinists. This did not keep that state from falling, in spite of its genuine virtues.

Or that Prussia and Sweden were equally devoutly Lutheran. These states were defeated ultimately, and certainly didn't exhibit republican virtues.

You have selected a difficult premise to argue.

[exmarine]

Sorry- that's not how logic works. You're the one trying to say that God was guiding the FF. The onus is on you to prove it. I could just as easily say that space aliens were guiding them: But, wait, since you have no evidence that isn't a fact, you can't prove it isn't.

I don't have to prove it. This is one assertion that cannot be proven or disproven using empirical humanistic methods. When I get to heaven, I'll ask for you. It now seems that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing - are you that desperate to win one single point of the debate?

[buwaya]

The depravity of mankind point is actually highly debatable. It is also Catholic doctrine (and hence Episcopal/Anglican), depending on what you mean precisely, if it is equivalent to the doctrine of original sin.

Self government is a Calvinist principle ? By this do you mean - what ?

[philetus]

When the time comes and they refuse citizenship, they should be deported.

[exmarine]

I could just as easily show that the Dutch Republic rested on the broad shoulders of devout genuine Calvinists. This did not keep that state from falling, in spite of its genuine virtues.

The Dutch didn't have our system of government. Prussia and Sweden were ruled by kings, so there's no comparison. However, I will say that the King of Sweden, Gustavus Adolphus saved Protestantism in the 30 years war when he clobbered your catholic forces. And the Dutch gave safe haven to the pilgrims before they came to plymouth.

[buwaya]

Of course, none of us has to prove our theology correct. But this was at least at some point partly a political argument because you claimed that the United States is divinely inspired, or protected, or in some way uniquely related to God, and you made arguments to prove it was so.

[buwaya]

Gustavus Adolphus had a great deal of help (like all his money) from the perfidious, and Catholic, French.

Some things never change.

[Modernman]

I don't have to prove it. This is one assertion that cannot be proven or disproven using empirical humanistic methods.

Fine, but don't pretend like it's a fact, which is what you were doing.

When I get to heaven, I'll ask for you.

What arrogance. Glad you have foreknowledge of who gets to go to heaven.

[exmarine]

Biblical literalism= believing everything in the bible is literally true (i.e. God made the universe in seven days) which is, and will continue to be, a fringe view among even American Protestants.

That's what Genesis says - 7 days. I just read what it says. I am aware that catholic schools now teach evolutionary theory which is completely opposed to Christian beliefs. Let me lay it out for you: If evolution is true, then Adam and Eve (Genesis account) MUST be mere allegory, which means original sin is also allegory (sin can't be real if people aren't), which means there is no need for a savior because there is nothing to be saved from, which means that there is no need for Jesus Christ, which means you shouldn't bother to go to confession anymore becuase it makes no sense.

Conclusion: Genesis must be true in order for Christianity to be true. Go tell that to your priest.

[buwaya]

But that is the point - if they were devout, and had the religious doctrines that you espouse, and which you claim made the US uniquely successful, why were these people not inspired into similarly effective politics ?

[buwaya]

And that is why you need to read Augustine if you want an answer to these questions.

[exmarine]

Fine, but don't pretend like it's a fact, which is what you were doing.

I BELIEVE it's a fact - I don't have to prove it to believe it is a fact. I don't care what you believe.

What arrogance. Glad you have foreknowledge of who gets to go to heaven.

Not foreknowledge, just promises from Jesus himself. Jesus said, "Whoever believes in me has eternal life." He also said, "God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life." I merely trust what my Savior tells me. You would benefit to do likewise. John writes, "we write these things so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life." (1jn 5:16).

[exmarine]

But that is the point - if they were devout, and had the religious doctrines that you espouse, and which you claim made the US uniquely successful, why were these people not inspired into similarly effective politics

I don't know - why don't you research it and find out.