Millions refuse U.S. Citizenship

Miami Herald ^ | 09/18/03 | ALFONSO CHARDY

[buwaya]

Catholic school-educated, please. Yes, all of those guys as well, theoretically speaking. All were in the European philosophical tradition. Actual working models of a constitutional republic that was democratic was a bit short though. For that they had Britain, and maybe Venice, and then they had to jump back to Rome.

[exmarine]

Killing Jews as authorized by the government was not murder as far as they were concerned.

Then murder was legal. No way around it. This is what happens when people invent their own moral standards. This is what happens when THE ABSOLUTE standard is ignored, and people make up their own rules. History is littered with hundreds of millions of dead as a result of moral relativism.

[exmarine]

For that they had Britain, and maybe Venice, and then they had to jump back to Rome.

Hello? Britain was a monarchy with a Parliament, and it was only becuase of the PURITANS (Christians) that the power of the King was diminished.

[Modernman]

The Roman republic didn't work because the Senate was too weak and it ended in a dictatorship

The Roman Republic worked for about 500 years, longer than America has existed.

Oh, and the Roman Republic had the same three branches of goverment that we have.

Try: http://www.utexas.edu/depts/classics/documents/RepGov.html

I doubt that's a coincidence.

[exmarine]

Wonder where they got their ideas. Considering that in the FF days a man wasn't considered educated unless he had studied the Classical world, I'm pretty sure where the the gentlemen you quote started from.

all of the men I mentioned were CHRISTIANS!! All of them. Puffendorf, Locke, Montesquieu, Grotius, Rutherford, Blackstone. Get it now?

[exmarine]

The Roman Republic worked for about 500 years, longer than America has existed.

Wrong again. The Roman republic ended in 44 BC with the ascension of Julius Caesar as dictator/emperor. so, you are wrong again, since the roman empire did not start coming into its own until the third century BC.

[exmarine]

Oh, and the Roman Republic had the same three branches of goverment that we have.

Dont' you ever get tired of being wrong? The three different branches of government are from Montesquieu, who got them from the bible. Isaiah 33:22, and I quote: For the LORD [is] our judge, the LORD [is] our lawgiver, the LORD [is] our king; he will save us.

God is capable of being all 3 at once. A sinful man isn't.

[buwaya]

The British constitution has separation of powers - undefined but real - note what happened to Charles I for ignoring that. This includes an independent judiciary btw.

Representation as well was from Britain, also true of many European assemblies and parliaments dating back to the Middle Ages

The electoral college exists in the Catholic Church - the Cardinals are designated electors. The same is common in various religious orders, often selected democratically, btw.. The Holy Roman Empire (neither holy, nor Roman, nor..) by tradition selected the Emperor by hereditary electors, etc. so this is not originally out of whole cloth either.

The Senate was a copy straight from Rome, with perhaps a stop at Venice, and a brush by British parliamentary principles.

The founders had practical origins for all the elements of their system.

[Modernman]

lol. Give me one example of a democracy before the United States that had an electoral college, representation, separation of powers, etc

The Roman Republic had everything but the electoral college. Male, land-owning citizens could vote (sound familiar?)

and that which was formed BY THE PEOPLE.

As opposed to Republics formed by the fish?

So what are you talking about? You have simply redefined democracy from what it really was at the time of the Greeks. You have called our republic a democracy and then said that the two are the same. HAHAHA. To you they may mean the same thing, but not to our founders, and not to the witness of history, that is clear.

Nope, all I've done is tell you that your incredibly narrow definition of "democracy" and "republic" are based on nothing more than your personal views of what those words should mean. Historically, there have been many different entities that could be considered both republics and democracies. The two meanings overlap and have nothing to do with your provincial view of the subject.

[buwaya]

So ? Everybody else in Europe was Christian.

[ATOMIC_PUNK]

If they're so proud of their national origin why aren't the still in their nation?

Because our government gives them the ilusion that this is their nation !

[Modernman]

Hello? Britain was a monarchy with a Parliament, and it was only becuase of the PURITANS (Christians) that the power of the King was diminished.

Britain has been a constitutional Monarchy since the Magna Carta. One of the few systems close to a republic at the time, but it probably doesn't qualify as a Republic, unless you remove the king as the head of state, tough.

[buwaya]

The British parliament was a power before there were any Puritans, and they had separation of powers - the Parliament had the power of the purse - to set taxes and authorize expenditure, which the King did not.

[Modernman]

all of the men I mentioned were CHRISTIANS!! All of them. Puffendorf, Locke, Montesquieu, Grotius, Rutherford, Blackstone. Get it now?

So? That's just one part of what shaped their philosophies and writings. They didn't exist in a bubble. Where do you think they got their ideas, if not the Classical World?

[buwaya]

OK, for you it was legal. You are arguing semantics here.

[exmarine]

The Roman Republic had everything but the electoral college. Male, land-owning citizens could vote (sound familiar?)

Baloney. The roman republic was not formed by the people, it was formed by PATRICIANS who inherited their status. And Rome had no Constitution, no Bill of Rights, no guaranteed freedoms, no acknowledgement that rights are unalienable (come from God), did not understand the sinful nature of man, etc. The founders knew well the failings of the roman system (not the same as ours). 27 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Indpendence has seminary degrees, and one of the requirements was to be fluent in both greek and latin.

[buwaya]

Rome was around for @ 500 years before Caesar, the founding of Rome being generally placed in the 7th century BC. The Republic probably existed in one form or another for 500 years, as Rome was a city-state before it had an empire.

[Modernman]

For the LORD [is] our judge, the LORD [is] our lawgiver, the LORD [is] our king; he will save us.

Interesting, then I'll just have to wait for God to decide any pending court cases my law firm might have. I guess Congress can go home and we'll wait for God to reform Social Security.

Dont' you ever get tired of being wrong? The three different branches of government are from Montesquieu

And I ask you again- where did he get those ideas, if not the Classical World?

[buwaya]

Plebians voted too you know. There were also Plebian senators.

Rome had several constitutions, one written (the plates of the law) and another unwritten, much like the British one, based on precedent.

And like we have been saying, the US constitution was heavily influenced by classical example but was an agglomeration of many different elements.

BTW, the Bill of Rights was an add-on.

[Modernman]

Baloney. The roman republic was not formed by the people, it was formed by PATRICIANS who inherited their status

The FF were essentially patricians- they were not too keen to give the majority the right to vote (most WHITE men couldn't vote). Hell, only about 1/3 of the American people at the time supported independence. The US was not formed by the "people," at least, not by the majority of them.

And Rome had no Constitution, no Bill of Rights, no guaranteed freedoms, no acknowledgement that rights are unalienable (come from God), did not understand the sinful nature of man, etc

Rome had no written constitution, but there were many laws that protected citizens- there was certainly a "bill of rights" (for example, you couldn't shackle a citizen before he was convicted of a crime).

Sure, the Roman Republic was different from us, but I'm not saying the FF adopted their system completely- they picked and choose from a variety of places.