Flags in Classrooms - UCF

UCF Campus News ^ | 09/12/2003 | John C. Hitt, President UCF

[bmauer]

Oh, and EasyDECON was my favorite source!

[VeniVidiVici]

Can we please have our school back now?

No. One thing those of your ilk forget is that it is not *your* school.

My aunt was a professional student for almost 20 years. Finally she wised up and got a real job as programmer. A 60s radical, she did the campus sit-ins, etc.

I say this because I wonder why people who get advanced degrees and end up teaching without ever having experienced the real world, think that they are even qualified to teach?

Wouldn't you think that having never left the cocoon of university life would stunt your growth as a person?

BTW, my aunt has now wised-up to the objectives of the "Progressives". She lives in NH, jealously guards her right to Keep and Bear Arms, and votes Republican because she sees the libs as tearing down our freedoms.

[bmauer]

I love to hear about myself from people who have never met me. Oh, and my ilk. Don't leave out my ilk.

For clarification, the university is no cocoon or ivory tower. Maybe a hundred years ago it was.

Also, I worked many jobs while I was in school. I wrote for a newspaper (The Washington TImes -- that's one of your conservative papers, isn't it?), and I worked in restaurants, in the film industry, as a tutor for refugees, in a printing press, in a bookstore and a record store, as a musician, and more. I have been to Europe and the Middle East and learned to read in French. I get more world experience in my little finger in an average year than most people get in their entire lives.

Why am I qualified to teach? Oh, it's because I have a little teensy bit of paper that says I am a PhD. Also, I passed a highly competetive job search. You try and see if you are qualified to teach at a university.

Now, by *our* school, I mean not just *my* school. I don't own it obviously. I mean that school belongs to those who have built it into the institution it is and those who are credentialed to make decisions about it. These people I refer to are trained in the traditions of Socratic Dialogue and Liberal Humanist thought. These are ourt traditions and they have worked for hundreds and hundreds of years. Anyone who would dare to try to replace these traditions at our universities is a dangerous neanderthal trying to throw rocks at something he/she is incapable of understanding.

[Chemist_Geek]

What of the effects of this decision on our academic enterprise? I am sure that there will be some who use the occasion to create or exploit controversy, but I must reject in the strongest terms the suggestion that the presence of the flag inhibits free speech. The flag is symbolic of the very constitution and government that guarantee our rights of democracy and free speech. Were you to seek redress from actions that you believed denied you free speech, you would do so in federal court, where you would find the flag on prominent display.

Wow. An administrator (and i've had my run-ins with them, both as a student and faculty) gets it!

[bmauer]

Yes, these are comments from President Hitt's letter. Let me clarify that I respect him a great deal for his articulation of values that the university hold, including internationalization and diversity.

I would point out that the classroom is not a courtroom. A classroom, unlike a courtroom, is not a free public space. Anyone can walk into a courtroom, but you cannot walk into my class unless you are registered to take it. The classroom environment at a university is a very special place and must be protected from powerful symbols that would undermine the processes of learning that were established by Socrates and Plato, renewed by the liberal humanist traditions of the renaissance, and institutionalized in this country by Thomas Jefferson.

[bmauer]

Yes, these are comments from President Hitt's letter. Let me clarify that I respect him a great deal for his articulation of values that the university hold, including internationalization and diversity.

I would like to point out, however, that the classroom is not a courtroom. A classroom, unlike a courtroom, is not a free public space. Anyone can walk into a courtroom, but you cannot walk into my class unless you are registered to take it. The classroom environment at a university is a very special place and must be protected from powerful symbols that would undermine the processes of learning that were established by Socrates and Plato, renewed by the liberal humanist traditions of the renaissance, and institutionalized in this country by Thomas Jefferson.

[Tolerance Sucks Rocks]

9. If you support free speech, why did your administration rule against the 2003-2004 Golden Rule Review Committee's decision to open the campus as a free speech area?
10. If the flag is a symbol of free speech, should we not install them in the actual Free Speech areas on campus, which are otherwise unmarked, rather than the classroom, in which freedom of speech does not apply?

Good questions.

[Tolerance Sucks Rocks]

Seeing one of these irritates me even more than the ones that replace the stars in the field with a peace symbol.

Why? It can be interpreted as symbolic of free enterprise...:-)

[Tolerance Sucks Rocks]

I see no reason to invite that kind of result by putting flags in the classroom to begin with. There is no positive benefit to putting flags in the classrooms, and there are a number of negative consequences that will likely result.

Do you really think the flags were introduced just to bait leftist professors and student radicals???

[Tolerance Sucks Rocks]

Will the context of permanent, officially-sanctioned flags in the classroom, combined with punishment for anyone caught messing with the flags, affect what people say and think in the classroom on the question of patriotism?

Not if they have balls (yes, it's that simple).

[Tolerance Sucks Rocks]

The classroom should be a space for free academic inquiry into core American values, behaviors, and values. It should not be used as a platform for promoting someone's narrow view of patriotism. It should not be used to test people's loyalty or allegiance to some narrow set of prescribed values.

Good heavens! The American flag represents political diversity, not narrow values. Do you think freedom and limited government (to the extend we still have either) are "narrow values?" Do you think American patriotism is a narrow value? Since most universities are bastions of socialism--er, liberalism, do you think conservatism (part of the political diversity) is a narrow value (not that I'm suggesting the flag advances a conservative agenda)???

[bmauer]

Good question. I don't think that there is one reason only why the pro-flag people want the flags, and I hesitate to presume what other people's motives are, but I have heard comments like the ones below (from FR), and I suspect that they indicate a desire to use the flags as "bait":

Flag : Liberal

Cross : Vampire

18 posted on 09/15/2003 8:44 PM PDT by Wormwood


Solution: Stake and Garlic ;)

20 posted on 09/15/2003 8:48 PM PDT by Libertina

I'm bringing an American flag to my classroom this evening. Anti-Americans are free to leave.

57 posted on 09/16/2003 2:21 PM PDT by stainlessbanner

Those who are upset by American flags in America can pound sand or complain about the fascism at the next Free MUMU rally.

65 posted on 09/16/2003 2:48 PM PDT by justshutupandtakeit

If they don't love America and our flag, then they need to get out.

70 posted on 09/16/2003 3:06 PM PDT by goodseedhomeschool

This is a good way to smoke out those who do NOT have America's best interest at heart. There are those in this country who HATE everything about it and who will not stop at anything to destroy it. Those people are MY deadly enemies and I will fight them to the last breath.

140 posted on 09/17/2003 7:28 AM PDT by justshutupandtakeit

[bmauer]

A lot of people don't have balls -- they are confused and scared when they come to college. I always have about a third of the students in my classes who will talk at the drop of a hat, another third who will venture a comment now and then, and a third who will say nothing unless dragged kicking. My goal is to get everybody to feel comfortable enough to speak.

[bmauer]

As I've said in other posts, EVERYTHING should be put into question in the classroom, and nothing should be assumed. American patriotism should be put into question, as should socialism, as should freedom and limited government and political diversity. You can't assume to know what those things are or what they mean or what their value is until you have examined them in the proper setting with the proper methods.

[dennisw]

Why am I qualified to teach? Oh, it's because I have a little teensy bit of paper that says I am a PhD. Also, I passed a highly competetive job search. You try and see if you are qualified to teach at a university.

In no way am I attacking you but...... Perhaps you can account for all the otherwise unemployable bums and I do mean bums who are teaching in the liberal arts departments. State universities rob me off my tax dollars to put legions of unemployables with PhD sheepskins to work teaching bllsht subject areas that only raise tuitions for students who prefer no frills educations. What I refer to are all kinds of ethnic studies and women studies departments. What I refer to are the neo Marxist professors (with their PhDs!) who propagandize during English classes, during their history classes. 

How come Middle East studies in dominated by leftists and anti Semites in the USA?

Campus Watch

Where is the diversity when it comes to political opinion? How many conservative teachers do you know on your campus? The prevailing view at FreeRepublic is that the left dominates and excludes the right from the major print media, from the major TV networks and from your so called academy.

Chilling Effects: David Horowitz tries to redefine "academic freedom" [note: focus on Colorado] ^
			Posted by Greg Luzinski On 09/18/2003 8:26 AM EDT with 48 comments Reason Online ^ | September 17, 2003 | Jesse Walker The Republican firebrand David Horowitz is mad at the Colorado media. Seems that when the Centennial State started mulling ways to enact the Academic Bill of Rights, a document devised and promoted by Horowitz's group Students for Academic Freedom, the local press suggested that it would amount to a quota bill for right-wing professors. Replied Horowitz: You cannot impose quotas or promote balance under the provisions of a bill that says in so many words: "No faculty shall be hired or fired or denied promotion or tenure on the basis of his or her political or religious beliefs."...Could anything be...

 

[dennisw]

When I was little there was an American flag in my classrooms. If it was good enough for me how come it isn't good enough for you and the state universities I pay for with my taxes?

We said the Pledge Allegiance too and stood up for it. Matter of fact there was no school prayer where I grew up, liberals had killed it.

[bmauer]

Well, elementary school and high school are different from a University. A university's mission is to train people to become literate, critical thinking, self-examining citizens. I don't mind that flags are in primary schools' classrooms.

[dennisw]

Well, elementary school and high school are different from a University. A university's mission is to train people to become literate, critical thinking, self-examining citizens. I don't mind that flags are in primary schools' classrooms.

I say there's not a bit of difference. Either we live in America or we don't. I have to go now but I thank you for willing to be able to take the heat here

[bmauer]

There are no unemplyable bums I've met at my university, period. You know that for many of the positions we offer in our department, we get more than 200 apllicants? All with PhDs? We pick the best of the best.

Now, your comments about Women's Studies and ethnic studies sucking up your tax dollars . . . what a laugh! Those programs are lucky if they can get a closet for an office and part time secretary to work in it. Basically, they get NO MONEY. Personally, I make sure that I teach women's studies and multiculturalism in my regular English classes, and I teach works by women authors, foreign authors, Latina/o authors, black authors, as well as all the great dead white men everybody expects.

If you think that's it's propaganda and indoctrination to show that these works exist and bring them into the class for discussion, then you have some problems.

Oh, and I teach Marxism too. I also teach about twelve other approaches to literature, including pschoanalysis, formalism, structuralism, post-structuralism, new historicism, cultural studies, semiotics, feminism, etc. Even if you disagree withese aproaches in principle or in practice, it is your responsibility as a major to learn what these things are.

I happen to know some Middle East studies professors, and your characterization of them is ridiculous. I have yet to meet an anti-semite among the faculty. I am Jewish, so I would be pretty sensitive to it if there was one here. There are leftists, but so what? As long as they do their jobs properly and have a professional opinioin, that's their preregative.

Diversity of political opinion is all over on campus. You must have a pretty distorted view of what happens there. The fact is, I present a diversity of opinions everyday to my classes. We read stuff by conservatives and Marxists and everybody else too. The classroom is a laboratory for diverse opinions to thrive.

Your last comment is the most revealing to me: "The prevailing view at FreeRepublic is that the left dominates and excludes the right from the major print media, from the major TV networks and from your so called academy." You guys sound so paranoid! Get real. You'd think that Noam Chomsky was all over the airwaves, and that Rush, Hannity, Coulter, etc. were all obscure little voices printing leaflets at a Kinkos. Give me a break!

[bmauer]

Thanks for your comments about my "willingness to take the heat." I don't see it as heat. I see it as testing competing arguments.

Now let's take your argument that "We either live in America or we don't." By that token, everything in America should have a flag in it or on it. Bathrooms should have flags in them (especially if taxpayers paid for them), closets should have flags in them, garages should have flags in them. Maybe in your house this is fine.

So if you accept that maybe flags are more appropriate in some places than in others (which I think is reasonable given the ridiculous alternative), then the questions is simply one of where we draw the line. For example, I draw the line in the university classroom. I've explained why I draw that line many times.

Here's something to chew on. A lot of people say the university is public, but think about what that really means. You have a right to walk onto campus, to go into the student union, to protest in the desgnated free speech zones. But you don't have a right to walk into a class that's in session unless you're registered for it. In other words, suddenly the classroom is less than fully public, isn't it?

Now there are buildings on campus that are publically funded but are not at all "public." Even I can't get in them because they are high security buildings where military research is going on. So we must admit that the word "public" can mean a lot of different things in practice.

The classroom is perhaps a semi-public space. It is not a space for "anything goes" or "free assembly" or even for "free speech." The teacher sets the agenda in the classroom, and rightly so. The teacher represents the interests of his or her discipline and is trained to do so. Now my discipline is the study of culture, and I am highly trained to do it well. And as someone who does it well (very well) I can tell you straight out that a permanent flag in the classroom is not conducive to what I do.