IBM bundles up with Chinese Linux company (Chicom Government that is)

Ziff Davis Online ^ | 9-11-03 | Stephen Shankland

[Lorenb420]

You could argue that Bill Clinton under strict circumstances, such as through intermediary contractor gave the Chinese a 'peek' at US missle technology.

Doesn't make me feel any better.

Like I said before, I still can't see many US companies buying something called 'Red Flag Linux' and getting their tech support from China.

Apart from translations to Mandarin or whatever (which only matters to them really), what is the value add to Red Flag that would convince Windows/Linux users to switch?

Besides even if all of China used licensed (or unlicensed) copies of Windows how is that a good thing?

Let those ChiComs live like the North Koreans. Stop giving them anything until they get a clue.

[Liberal Classic]

Microsoft and China Announce Government Security Program Agreement

Beijing, China, Feb. 28, 2003 -- Representing the China government, the China Information Technology Security Certification Center (CNITSEC) signed an agreement with Microsoft at the State Development & Planning Commission (SDPC) office to participate in the recently announced Government Security Program (GSP). Mr. Wang Chunzheng, Vice Chairman of the SDPC presided over the signing ceremony. Microsoft Chairman and Chief Software Architect Bill Gates briefed Chinese President Jiang Zemin on the GSP agreement signed between the two parties during today?s reception of Mr. Gates by the President.

The GSP is a global initiative that provides national governments with controlled access to Microsoft® Windows® source code and other technical information they need to be confident in the security of the Windows platform. The China Government is one of the first governments around the globe to sign the agreement. Russia, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and the United Kingdom announced GSP agreements with Microsoft last month. Microsoft is in discussions with more than 30 countries, territories and organizations about their interest in the program. The signing of the GSP is also a deliverable of the Memorandum of Understanding "On Strengthening Software Industry Cooperation" Microsoft signed with SDPC June 2002.

...

[Golden Eagle]

I already said what M$ did was unfortunate. It still does not in any way compare to IBM and HP helping the Chicoms build their own completely independent system.

A peek at Windows /= complete access to source code and right to imbed it in Chicom government's system like the Linux vendors are all in cahoots doing. You want to contribute to Linux? You are contributing to Red Flag then.

[Liberal Classic]

Draw what conclusions from this what you will. It sounds clear that this is a government source license program.

All the same, I will say neither that Bill Gates is a traitor nor that Windows users are stumping for the Reds. That sort of crap should be below us.

[Golden Eagle]

All the same, I will say neither that Bill Gates is a traitor nor that Windows users are stumping for the Reds. That sort of crap should be below us.

Be sure Coral Snake gets the word. Thx.

[taxcontrol]

I'm pro Linux and I don't have a problem with China developing it's own verision of Linux. Further I cant see why anyone would.

China builds it's own road, it's own bridges, it's own buildings. Why would building it's own operating system be any different?

[Golden Eagle]

Well we don't compete against China's bridge building business in other parts of the world that I am aware of. Even if we did, bridges can't be used to better control missles that are pointed at us or Tawain.

First, this is direct collusion between US technology companies and the Chinese government in an attempt to better their internal technological capability. You may recall hearing about Loral and other US companies helping the Chinese government to build better satelites and rockets a few years ago? Well this is very similar whereby US companies are again directly aiding the communist government over there in obtaining technology they haven't yet achieved or acquired. And increases in computing power help guide those missles closer to their intended targets.

Second this helps them build a competitive system against our own for-sale products. America's #1 export is technology, since the Chicoms have already stolen a lot of our former manufacturing capability. Now they are building a computer operating system and applications that will compete in the market against our own for-sale products. But they are funding their project with the government dollars. Imagine if they were building other items to compete directly against our corporations, like vehicles. Do you think it would be fair competition for Ford and GM to have to compete against the government controlled slave labor of China? It never has been fair in other markets, and it never will be fair in these new ones.

Do you really want to see China become the dominant worldwide producer of software? That is where they could be heading with this. Countries like Japan and Korea have already expressed great interest in standardizing on Red Flag if not something very similar based on Linux.

Hopefully this explains some of the problem here to you, although if you really didn't see anything wrong in the first place, I'll have to wonder.

[taxcontrol]

I think you are very much miss reading the open source movement and it's impact on technology and the world.

Consider this. The fact that China can produce it's own Linux means that ANYONE else can as well. Japan, Korea, Mexico, anyone. This creates a natural market cap on anyone trying to dominate the IT and software market. This is what tends to rub the pro-Microsoft folk the wrong way. China CANT dominate the world market because anyone can go out and create their own Linux distribution. In effect, it prevents the exact thing you discribe.

Also, you mention that IBM's including a stripped down version of DB2 in a Linux distro as helping the Chinese????

Have you considered that now millions of programers and database admins are now going to be trained on DB2? Are you aware that is a US product? Are you aware that IBM sells products and services into China - you know trying to reduce the trade gap? Well consider this, as Chinese businesses out grow the striped down DB2, they will be most inclined to use technology they are already familure with - IBM's DB2.

Only they will have to buy the full version from IBM.

[taxcontrol]

Oh, one other point I missed.

Missle control systems tyically use dedicated hardware boards - not a general OS. The Chinese already have electrical engineers who can build those boards. Further, if China wanted to, it could by 1 copy of Windows and reverse engineer it and make Rindows or some such.

The primary reason sited in security community that the Chinese didn't is that they do no trust Microsoft and feel that the NSA has put back doors into the code. Linux code is open for review and thus easier to find backdoors.

[Golden Eagle]

Sorry, I'm not misreading anything. It is obvious what is happening here, and that is the loss of the US technological advantage over the rest of the world.

You may or may not even be American, can't ever tell on these internet sites. But Americans have a vested interest in keeping our products as the premier software choices for both internal and exported consumption. That does not necessarily mean M$. It simply means any American IT company, unless their technology is based on a foreign product, like Red Hat and Lindows are.

We should support our own companies instead of these foreign alternatives you seem to be promoting. Exactly what is the benefit to the US if some of the countries you mentioned, China and Mexico for example, become the supreme software producers in the world? By the way, that was a rhetorical question.

[Golden Eagle]

They need software to design the boards. But that was only one extreme example of how the Chinese can use this technology against us. Reverse engineer to Rindows is hardly realistic.

Chinese may not be able to trust M$. Good reason why we as Americans shouldn't trust Linux if you make that argument though. Just because Linux is open doesn't mean you have sufficient good eyes to find possible backdoors, which are probably more likely if you're taking code contributions from likely advesaries.

[taxcontrol]

I would recommend you look at http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/ and then tell me if Americans should trust Linux.

Oh, software to develop boards has been available on the general market for a couple of decades now. My father-in-law downloaded a simple version from a BBS in the '80s.
Cat's out of the bag.

[Golden Eagle]

I would recommend you look at http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/ and then tell me if Americans should trust Linux.

Well, from the FAQ file right on that site...

Is Security-enhanced Linux a Trusted Operating System?

No.

So there you have it: http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/faq.html#I12

[taxcontrol]

I do show my support for US companies - by selling US technology overseas whenever and whereever possible. And that is exactly what IBM is doing here.

They are NOT releasing DB2 code. They are simply including a crippleware version of their DB2 database - to develope future sales. They are NOT giving anything away here. They are distributing free samples to get Chinese programers and companies "hooked" on their software. They are in effect making the bet that down the road there will be more people who will want to use their DB2 software rather than convert their database.

I'm not promoting any forgien alternative - It does not bother me that they want to make a Chinese language Linux because a Chinese version of Linux is of ZERO use to me or any of the customers and people that I work with.

Here is a news flash - programing and software development is a skill and a skill that has no geographic constraints. Anyone with a computer, some time, and access to the Internet can become a good programer. With experience, even a great programer. There is no tool of government, no restriction, no law that can change that fact. The cat is out of the bag. And China, India, Russia, any country that desires to can develop the skills to become excellent software producers.

Quality programing is becoming a commodity - the US needs to realize this and adapt and overcome. You do that by getting there "firstest with the mostest".

And that is exactly what IBM is doing.

[Golden Eagle]

They are simply including a crippleware version of their DB2 database - to develope future sales. They are NOT giving anything away here.

Sure they are. The right to charge China for AIX instead. Among other things like our dominant edge in operating system software.

They are in effect making the bet that down the road there will be more people who will want to use their DB2 software rather than convert their database.

Which is a joke. Do you know why the Chinese chose Linux? Because it wasn't American. They used to run Windows remember. DB2 will suffer a similar fate, as soon as they are humanly capable of ditching it. IBM is selling out for the here and now.

It does not bother me that they want to make a Chinese language Linux because a Chinese version of Linux is of ZERO use to me or any of the customers and people that I work with.

That's about to change... http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/09/08/HNenglishredflag_1.html

Quality programing is becoming a commodity...

Let's hope not, some of us make a living on it. And you'll never outproduce the slave camps in China, better to keep them building trinkets instead.

[Joe Pilot]

Golden Eagle wrote:

Is Security-enhanced Linux a Trusted Operating System?

No.

And you stopped reading with that one word?

Maybe it would be a good idea to drop them a line and ask if any known variant of MS Windows is a "Trusted Operating System," by their standard. No OS available on the shelves at your local computing store qualifies. Not one of them. Especially not MS Windows of any "personal use" flavor.

You do your cause no service at all by spouting the first piece of FUD you come up with. At least attempt to educate yourself, would you, please?

[Coral Snake]

Ir probably would be called RED FLAG Rindows. ;-).

[Golden Eagle]

And you stopped reading with that one word?

Of course not, I've looked that site over countless times, which is why his argument was so easy to quickly debunk.

So do you have any good reasons why IBM should be allowed to assist with the development of internal Chicom government software? Isn't this somewhat similar to what they were accused of in the 1940's with Germany?

[Joe Pilot]

Golden Eagle wrote:

So do you have any good reasons why IBM should be allowed to assist with the development of internal Chicom government software?

Not at all. For the record, I don't believe they should. That was not my objection. You implied that the fact that the NSA does not certify SE-Linux as a "Trusted Operating System" means that America can't "trust" Linux.

By that logic, America should really distrust MS Windows. At least the NSA is using Linux in an attempt to develop one model for a "Trusted Operating System."

I sure don't see the NSA page for SE-WinXP anywhere.   ;)

[Golden Eagle]

The NSA uses everything. They have to know everything, and hopefully you understand they would have full source copies of all versions of Windows there. They are like the Library of Congress for software and hardware. No exceptions.

The whole point of the SE-Linux is it's open source, so they are using it as a demo of what could be done to increase security because the code is exposed and makes a good training medium. Even though they clearly admit they didn't increase the security much, just a few pointers here and there.

However that raises an interesting point. I'm not sure I agree with our "National Security Agency" giving out pointers about our security practices over the internet. That kind of information could be used against you one day, by who knows who when you post it on the internet.

Yes, this was a government agency that did this, but that certainly doesn't necessarily make it right. The Department of Energy has been guilty of some pretty boneheaded things of late as well.

I believe in keeping US technology secrets secret, at least between our top vendors and our government. Building up the Chicom goverment computers should be bound by the State Department if companies like IBM can't control themselves from the lure of dirty money.