Movers Haul Away Ten Commandments in Montgomery

FOXNews.com ^ | Wednesday, August 27, 2003

[Virginia-American]

God exists by definition. (Roughly, God is the universe and all the laws and interactions with which it operates. Entropy, for example, is a property of God, as is gravity, inertia, etc.). It doesn't matter what anyone believes, God is here, there, and everywhere.

A little more poetically..

God is the Iz-ness of the Is,
The One-ness of our Cosmic Biz;
The high, the low, the near, the far,
The atom and the evening star;
The lark, the shark, the cloud, the clod,
The whole darned Universe--that's God.
-- Robert Service

[RoughDobermann]

Okay, prove it. I want facts, names of books where this is proven, absolute proof that these people that wrote these books (or articles) know whereof they speak, etc., etc., etc. You want everyone else to prove everything. Since you want evidence from so many people on this thread, I want solid evidence from you. You seem to know everything so it should not be difficult for you to provide this proof.

Umm, Viking. I didn't claim that Washington was a Christian, did I? Others did. All I'm asking for is some evidence to back up that assertion.

[vikingcelt]

I had heard of most of these instances, Libertina, but not the one in Texas. They want G-d out of public life and perhaps out of all life. I wonder where this is going to end. We need a massive mobilization of people in this country to protest these injustices.

[RoughDobermann]

Okay, prove it.

Prove what? That I believe that Washington was NOT a a Christian? I can't. Know why? You can't prove a negative. I don't know for sure that he wasn't. What I do know is that there is no primary source evidence that HE proclaimed himself to be a Christian. If you can find some, please let me know. I'd love to have it.

[Libertina]

I wonder where this is going to end
That's the good part. We know the answer to that one :)

[F16Fighter]

"Byron is a socialist, he believes in the collective mind, and dissapproves of individualism, or the right to think and speak freely."

Hey Luis -- isn't it courtesy to at least ping the FReeper you're dissin' and give him the opportunity to defend himself from distortion and innuendo?

[vikingcelt]

And you are claiming that Washington wasn't a Christian and I would like for you to provide some evidence to back up that assertion. You have asked people on this thread for specifics regarding harrassment of Christians, the taking of bibles from children in schools, etc., etc. Now it's your turn to provide proof for your assertions. Oh I see...now it's become a one way street. Just like a liberal.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Not in your book.

[RoughDobermann]

And you are claiming that Washington wasn't a Christian

No, actually I haven't. But thanks for trying to put words in my mouth. How like a religious zealot...

[vikingcelt]

"You should know that each and every one of those "prayers" has never been proven to be attributed to Washington. Historians are virtually unanimous in agreement that not only did he not write them, he never said them either." Okay. Here you say that "historians are virtually unanimous..." What historians? What books? For you to assert this in your post you must surely have read these historians. And since you have read these historians you must have their names, the names of their books or articles, dates of publications, places of publication, name of publisher, etc., etc., etc. Come on!!! Help out here. I want to read these historians so that I can come to my own conclusions but I can't read what they wrote if you won't give us some FACTUAL information.

[PleaseNoMore]

No one but Washington himself can "prove" or "disprove" that he was a Christian. With that said, the writings that he left behindand his statements witnessed and recorded by others would indicate that he was more probobly than not a Christian.

[RoughDobermann]

No one but Washington himself can "prove" or "disprove" that he was a Christian.

Exactly. That is my point. If anyone can find authenticated words written by Washington that assert that he is/was a Christian, I'd love to see them. I've actually been looking for years (as an historian) and I haven't found one. Plenty of secondary and third-party sources, but no primary.

[RoughDobermann]

Sure. Here's one:

George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)

[RoughDobermann]

Another:

Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs Of Our Presidents (1936),

[T'wit]

You twist "a stone monument" (my words) into "the ORIGINAL 10 commandments" (your words). That's not "/sarcasm." That's like mistaking the Washington Monument for George Washington.

[PleaseNoMore]

Well I must ask, is there anything authenticated, a primary source, suggesting that he is NOT a Christian?

[RoughDobermann]

Well I must ask, is there anything authenticated, a primary source, suggesting that he is NOT a Christian?

Not that I'm aware of, but as I've said, one can't prove a negative, can one?

[jwalsh07]

George Washingtons adopted daughter in a letter to Jared Sparks. You do know who Jared Sparks is, right?

---

Woodlawn, 26 February, 1833.
Sir,
I received your favor of the 20th instant last evening, and hasten to give you the information, which you desire.
Truro [Episcopal] Parish is the one in which Mount Vernon, Pohick Church [the church where George Washington served as a vestryman], and Woodlawn [the home of Nelly and Lawrence Lewis] are situated. Fairfax Parish is now Alexandria. Before the Federal District was ceded to Congress, Alexandria was in Fairfax County. General Washington had a pew in Pohick Church, and one in Christ Church at Alexandria. He was very instrumental in establishing Pohick Church, and I believe subscribed [supported and contributed to] largely. His pew was near the pulpit. I have a perfect recollection of being there, before his election to the presidency, with him and my grandmother. It was a beautiful church, and had a large, respectable, and wealthy congregation, who were regular attendants.
He attended the church at Alexandria when the weather and roads permitted a ride of ten miles [a one-way journey of 2-3 hours by horse or carriage]. In New York and Philadelphia he never omitted attendance at church in the morning, unless detained by indisposition [sickness]. The afternoon was spent in his own room at home; the evening with his family, and without company. Sometimes an old and intimate friend called to see us for an hour or two; but visiting and visitors were prohibited for that day [Sunday]. No one in church attended to the services with more reverential respect. My grandmother, who was eminently pious, never deviated from her early habits. She always knelt. The General, as was then the custom, stood during the devotional parts of the service. On communion Sundays, he left the church with me, after the blessing, and returned home, and we sent the carriage back for my grandmother.
It was his custom to retire to his library at nine or ten o'clock where he remained an hour before he went to his chamber. He always rose before the sun and remained in his library until called to breakfast. I never witnessed his private devotions. I never inquired about them. I should have thought it the greatest heresy to doubt his firm belief in Christianity. His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian. He was not one of those who act or pray, "that they may be seen of men" [Matthew 6:5]. He communed with his God in secret [Matthew 6:6].
My mother [Eleanor Calvert-Lewis] resided two years at Mount Vernon after her marriage [in 1774] with John Parke Custis, the only son of Mrs. Washington. I have heard her say that General Washington always received the sacrament with my grandmother before the revolution. When my aunt, Miss Custis [Martha's daughter] died suddenly at Mount Vernon, before they could realize the event [before they understood she was dead], he [General Washington] knelt by her and prayed most fervently, most affectingly, for her recovery. Of this I was assured by Judge [Bushrod] Washington's mother and other witnesses.
He was a silent, thoughtful man. He spoke little generally; never of himself. I never heard him relate a single act of his life during the war. I have often seen him perfectly abstracted, his lips moving, but no sound was perceptible. I have sometimes made him laugh most heartily from sympathy with my joyous and extravagant spirits. I was, probably, one of the last persons on earth to whom he would have addressed serious conversation, particularly when he knew that I had the most perfect model of female excellence [Martha Washington] ever with me as my monitress, who acted the part of a tender and devoted parent, loving me as only a mother can love, and never extenuating [tolerating] or approving in me what she disapproved of others. She never omitted her private devotions, or her public duties; and she and her husband were so perfectly united and happy that he must have been a Christian. She had no doubts, no fears for him. After forty years of devoted affection and uninterrupted happiness, she resigned him without a murmur into the arms of his Savior and his God, with the assured hope of his eternal felicity [happiness in Heaven]. Is it necessary that any one should certify, "General Washington avowed himself to me a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic, disinterested devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."
With sentiments of esteem,
I am, Nelly Custis-Lewis

[RoughDobermann]

Yes, Jared was an historian at Harvard, IIRC. And Wsahington's daughter is a secondary, not primary, source.

[RoughDobermann]

I never witnessed his private devotions. I never witnessed his private devotions. I should have thought it the greatest heresy to doubt his firm belief in Christianity. His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian.

Even his own daughter "never witnessed his private devotions" and "never witnessed his private devotions." Do you not think that, if he were a Christian, she would have at least heard him speak about his Christianity, at least in passing? Do you not find it odd that he did not?