Free trade's victims turning against Bush, GOP

The Herald Sun ^ | August 25, 2003 | associated press

[Chancellor Palpatine]

You imply with consdirable ignorance that I'm a Communist but I am actually a Rightist of the variety that considers you to be a Jacobin, anti nationalist, anti American anarchist.

Circling around that ideological bend where far left meets far right, they shake hands and all plot their mischief together.

[Chancellor Palpatine]

I like that! It has a more legitimate feel - less propaganda-like.

[GOP_1900AD]

To wit, from the actual applicable export control law (here's a bloody cite!): "Controlled technology in terms of export compliance regulation for (ECCN: 4D001, 4D003, 4E001 and 5E002) would be: (Definitions for "development", "production" and "use" are the same for categories A, B, and C.) A. Software specially designed or modified for the development, production or use of computer equipment: computer equipment = MTOPS > 28,000 development = design, research, design analysis, concepts, assembly & testing, design data, configuration design, integration design, layouts, (everything up to serial production) production = all stages of product engineering, manufacture, integration, assembly, inspection, testing, QA use = operation, installation (including on-site) maintenance, repair, overhaul refurbishing."

[ARCADIA]

If EVERYONE who is against FREE TRADE, would stop buying from a foreign country for even a MONTH, we could put a stop to this!!

Get real, there is virtually nothing left that is made within our borders. You can go to a typical Wallmart and cart away the store's entire inventory of US products in your pickup truck. The vendors would be happy to let you run around naked for a while. They know that you will quickly get tired and buy their foreign made goodies. The only way to fix it is to impose a high tarrif. The makers would then know that it is not going to go away soon, and waiting it out, means that your customers will become someone else's customers.

[GOP_1900AD]

That is what pale feeble moderates love to say. It's simply wrong headed though. You know what it means to be in the middle of the road? It means you can get run over from either direction.

[GOP_1900AD]

Funny that you have alluded to French inspired Jacobinism. That Jacobin spirit, which drives reflexive anti Anglic fervor amongst some who consider themselves to be "conservatives" but are really nothing more than Liberals who believe in economic anarchy, has been much mistaken for the real internicine issues between Whigs and Torries which fomented our War for Independence. Somewhere along the way our American Whiggish spirit got intermingled with Continental Jacobin philosophy and we started to confuse this spirit as somehow being our core values. Ironically, it is the reassertion of our roots of English Common Law, the Magna Carta, and other ancient underpinnings of our own Constitution which would serve most mightily in helping us to preserve our Republic from the ongoing erosion of its foundation by enemies foreign and domestic. To me, Jacobins are the most dangerous domestic enemies.

[Poohbah]

How can you call the selling of enabling military technologies and training of hostile anti Western engineers a "thought crime?"

ANY technology has military implications. So what you're saying is that the US should cease selling anything more sophisticated than a wooden club overseas, because it might be an "enabling military technology."

Doctor Teller--no commie-loving pinko--has long advocated that technological secrecy be restricted to six months at a maximum, because once it's known that you CAN do something, HOW it's done will be known in extremely short order.

Hell, you'd have to embargo publication of basic research as well.

If the Russians had been as paranoid about technical discourse as you are, we never would have built the F-117.

[Chancellor Palpatine]

You know the thinnest book in the world? "Great Actual Political Accomplishments of Far Right/Far Left Ideologues"

[PigRigger]

I've been following this thread with great interest over the past few days. Unfortunately many of the libertarian freepers have not addressed certain issues that I believe are critical if Bush is to be re-elected. Although their responses overall seem to hold many truths, they just aren't dealing with the reality many on this thread (and in this country) are facing today.

In a utopian world we all would have seen and prepared for what is occurring. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of Americans have not; that makes it a problem. Outsourcing of jobs is an issue; it will continue to increase dramatically in the years to come. Many more people over the next decade will lose their job or find it very difficult to find jobs in their area of expertise. Although lay-offs are not unique to today's generation of workers; the trend of off-shoring highly skilled, highly paid white collar jobs is.

I hear a lot of debate on what our economic policy should be as we move forward. However, I haven't heard much about what we should do today to address the problem of displaced workers. Actually that's not true. There have been comments such as "start your own business" and "get a job at McDonalds". These answers don't fit with today's reality.

Most of those on this thread who are facing very difficult times are hard working and highly motivated people who don't want the government taking care of them. But unlike a very small minority, they where not prepared for the situations they see themselves in now.

The reality is they want to work, they will bust their asses, they will give it everything they got to make it, and they don't want to be coddled by government. Unfortunately, they can't make it on a McDonalds salary, they can't risk gambling all their assets on starting a new business (that statistics dictate will probably fail, most do) when they have a family to clothe and feed. What do you say to them, "sorry you made a bad decision in life, that's not my responsibility" . If so, that's pathetic. The answer should involve addressing the current problem, as well as, navigating a future course that all Americans should be prepared to face and deal with.

Having Bush lie to the naive electorate to get re-elected to keep the status-quo is not the answer either. Having everyone start a new business is not the answer, learn to be happy and poor is not the answer. We are America, we are better than that. Reality dictates America and its citizenry need a lot good paying corporate jobs be made available on our shores.

I've also noticed a condescending tone when it has been stated: "it's for the children". Well I hate to break it to ya all, it sure is for our children. If this is the future they are to inherit, we better start preparing them to face this reality, because we sure as hell ain't doing it now. The days of having a single career for a lifetime seem to be over for many of us; the ability to move from career to career looks more and more like it will be the norm going forward.

Feel free to flame away, but I'd rather you address how a recently "displaced" tech worker with three kids, a wife, a mortgage, and medical bills is supposed survive when the skills he has are no longer needed in Corporate America. That is the reality of today's displaced American white collar worker (it's actually far better picture than reality). Try to be realistic in your responses, start your own business or work at McDonalds isn't.

Keep in mind these are the people that may be pivotal in re-electing Bush. Adding more to this group only serves increase the lefts chances of unseating him. Afterall, wasn't this the point of the thread to begin with.

[GOP_1900AD]

Why do you assume I'm an ideologue and not a doer? Do you think I fritter away my influence and never apply what I say here to real decisions and actual pressure on other decision makers?

[hchutch]

Merely because he disagrees with you?

Sorry, but quite frankly, you've done little more than try to smear Poohbah and others who don't go along with your "sky is falling" mantra.

[Texas_Dawg]

It can never be repeated enough:

We are all doomed.

[null and void]

You know the thinnest book in the world? "Great Actual Political Accomplishments of Far Right/Far Left Ideologues"

They've done wonders for population reduction...

[null and void]

Well, Pig, it sounds like you "get it".

Excellent post!

[Poohbah]

OK, you have a choice of:

1. US companies getting business in this field, and we have some idea of what these countries are doing.

2. Foreign companies get business, and we have NO idea what these countries are doing.

3. The country develops the capability indigenously after reading about how to set up a Beowulf Cluster. (Oh, my, there's that First Amendment, it allows grievous security leaks, we must execute our traitorous researchers who dare publish scholarly papers!) They set up the cluster with older desktop machines that are perfectly legal for export, configured for Linux, an open source O/S available for download on the Internet. All we know is that they bought a bunch of desktop machines.

In all cases, we have exactly ZERO means of preventing these countries from purchasing computers with these capabilities.

So, given those realities...what do you propose to do about this problem?

[Poohbah]

You know the thinnest book in the world? "Great Actual Political Accomplishments of Far Right/Far Left Ideologues"

They've done wonders for population reduction...

Outstanding riposte!

[GOP_1900AD]

So you oppose the existing export controls?

[GOP_1900AD]

Blather.

[Poohbah]

In a utopian world we all would have seen and prepared for what is occurring. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of Americans have not; that makes it a problem.

Then the satirical tale of the ant and the grasshopper (the one where Kermit sings "It Isn't Easy Being Green" on the Oprah Winfrey Show) becomes reality.

Feel free to flame away, but I'd rather you address how a recently "displaced" tech worker with three kids, a wife, a mortgage, and medical bills is supposed survive when the skills he has are no longer needed in Corporate America.

The same way I did the times I was fired.

Improvise. Adapt. Overcome.

[GOP_1900AD]

No one is categorically doomed. However there are consequences, both short and long term, to decisions and behavior.