Free trade's victims turning against Bush, GOP

The Herald Sun ^ | August 25, 2003 | associated press

[GOP_1900AD]

I do believe that filibustering (in the international not Congressional sense) is quite illegal. Look I'm not some scumbag lawyer so I ain't got no stinkin' cite. "Cites, we ain't got no cites. We ain't gonna show you no cites. We don't need to show you no stinkin' cites!" But in all seriousness, if we were to rate, on a scale of 1 - 10, the degree to which crimes of interference with US foreign policy (private individuals and corporations are forbidden to make claims to represent it or to drive it), and crimes of treason are being investigated, and prosecuted, the number would be quite low. It was certainly higher 150 or 200 years ago. That's my standard. What is yours?

[Poohbah]

I do believe that filibustering (in the international not Congressional sense) is quite illegal.

There are many people who believe that they've been abducted by space aliens.

"Belief" and "fact" are not semantically identical.

Look I'm not some scumbag lawyer so I ain't got no stinkin' cite.

I'm not a lawyer, either. But if I'm stating that something is illegal, I can cite the appropriate section of the US Code to support my thesis.

"Cites, we ain't got no cites. We ain't gonna show you no cites. We don't need to show you no stinkin' cites!"

Ah, you quote the motto of the "Revolutionary Justice Councils" as they liquidate "enemies of the people."

But in all seriousness, if we were to rate, on a scale of 1 - 10, the degree to which crimes of interference with US foreign policy (private individuals and corporations are forbidden to make claims to represent it or to drive it), and crimes of treason are being investigated, and prosecuted, the number would be quite low.

Probably because what you personally deem a crime and what the US Code deems a crime are not congruent.

It was certainly higher 150 or 200 years ago.

Do you have proof for this claim, or are you merely pounding the table?

You can't even tell me what law, if any, actually makes it a crime, and now you expect me to simply believe you when you claim that lots of people were prosecuted under this law that you're absolutely certain exists.

That's my standard. What is yours?

Oh, things like actual legal citations and actual case law that support your assertions. Little things, to be sure...

[ARCADIA]

The general US code heading for this area is listed under Treason, and the concept of giving aid and confort to the enemy. I am not arguing that the example mentioned meets that criteria; perhaps Sean Penn's behaviors comes closer.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/2381.html

[Poohbah]

The general US code heading for this area is listed under Treason, and the concept of giving aid and confort to the enemy.

Ah. But we aren't in a state of declared war. Notice that folks spying for the USSR during the Cold War didn't get popped for treason.

Try again.

I am not arguing that the example mentioned meets that criteria; perhaps Sean Penn's behaviors comes closer.

Good thing you posted that sentence.

"Closer" only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear bombs. We were not in a state of declared war with Iraq at the time of Sean Penn's visit.

[ARCADIA]

"Closer" only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear bombs. We were not in a state of declared war with Iraq at the time of Sean Penn's visit.

You can be obtuse if you want to; there is no requirement for a "declared war", and close, can be close enough for a conviction.

Here is another one that thought she was exercising free speach.... Time will tell.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/962295/posts

[Poohbah]

You can be obtuse if you want to; there is no requirement for a "declared war", and close, can be close enough for a conviction.

Exceptions to the rule are extremely rare, and merely saying something that the government dislikes is not grounds for a treason conviction.

Here is another one that thought she was exercising free speach.... Time will tell.

I don't see a reference to a charge of treason in that article.

[GOP_1900AD]

The thing to note is that today, our government is sqeamish about pursuing investigations, indictment and prosecution of treason. That has been the case ever since the McCarthy hearings occurred. Our government has also been squeamish about pursuing investigations of foreigners commiting industrial espionage, other espionage and various acts which according to the PLA white paper on "Unrestricted Warfare" as well as numerous older Soviet and newer Russian documents fit in with their strategies of fighting wars against the US and West in the economic and cultural dimensions. How should we defend ourselves against such attacks? Meanwhile, US corporations are undertaking activities in Communist countries, self declared "formerly Communist countries which actively support anti Western rogue nations and, other anti Western countries. Is this treason? Do we need to define some new crime which this ethically wrong set of activity is?

[Poohbah]

The thing to note is that today, our government is sqeamish about pursuing investigations, indictment and prosecution of treason.

It's always been "squeamish," because the standard of proof for treason was deliberately raised to an extremely high level. Note that treason is the one crime that is defined in the Constitution, and that the standard of proof is also defined the Constitution. There is a specific reason for that: the Crown had this habit of charging people with treason for saying things that displeased His Majesty. Your dislike of this aspect of the US Constitution comports well with the views of such distiniguished advocates of judicial reform as Josef Stalin and Saddam Hussein.

That has been the case ever since the McCarthy hearings occurred.

It was the case BEFORE the McCarthy hearings occurred, too.

Our government has also been squeamish about pursuing investigations of foreigners commiting industrial espionage, other espionage and various acts which according to the PLA white paper on "Unrestricted Warfare" as well as numerous older Soviet and newer Russian documents fit in with their strategies of fighting wars against the US and West in the economic and cultural dimensions.

We haven't been squeamish about it. Espionage is an extremely difficult crime to prove in a judicial system where one is guilty until proven innocent. Also, kindly note how well the Soviet Union did in fighting the US in economic and cultural dimensions.

THEY LOST.

How should we defend ourselves against such attacks?

When your opponent insists on shooting himself in the foot, your best defense is to keep passing him more ammunition.

Meanwhile, US corporations are undertaking activities in Communist countries, self declared "formerly Communist countries which actively support anti Western rogue nations and, other anti Western countries.

Uh-huh. They also undertake activities elsewhere.

Is this treason?

No.

Do we need to define some new crime which this ethically wrong set of activity is?

[Poohbah]

Do we need to define some new crime which this ethically wrong set of activity is?

I'm sure you'll think of something such as "thought crime," "counter-revolutionary deviationism," or (most likely) "capitalism."

[Chancellor Palpatine]

I like "counter-revolutionary deviationism" and "hoarding", myself.

[Poohbah]

And there's that great Stalinist classic, "wrecking."

[Texas_Dawg]

I like "counter-revolutionary deviationism" and "hoarding", myself.

"Hoarding" is a long-time hobby of shopkeepers. Also, "gouging".

[null and void]

hoarding???

PUH-leeese

It's evasion of tax on excess inventory...

[Poohbah]

Ah, yes, violating the Law of the Maximum was grounds for a visit to Dr. Guillotine's marvelous toy.

[GOP_1900AD]

So tell me, would you be in favor of making it legal to sell a computer that is capable of MTOPS > 28,000 to the PRC without an explicit export license waiver?

[Poohbah]

So tell me, would you be in favor of making it legal to sell a computer that is capable of MTOPS > 28,000 to the PRC without an explicit export license waiver?

Two words: Beowulf Cluster.

[pollywog]

I get so sick of " made in CHINA " that every time I see it I want to vomit. If EVERYONE who is against FREE TRADE, would stop buying from a foreign country for even a MONTH, we could put a stop to this!!

[GOP_1900AD]

How can you call the selling of enabling military technologies and training of hostile anti Western engineers a "thought crime?" Firstly there is no such thing as a thought crime. Secondly, I suspect that the acts I've described fall into the grey areas of violation of existing export control laws and / or treason.

[GOP_1900AD]

You imply with consdirable ignorance that I'm a Communist but I am actually a Rightist of the variety that considers you to be a Jacobin, anti nationalist, anti American anarchist.

[GOP_1900AD]

Your strategies (I use the word loosely) are highly supportive of the growth in power of the Stalinists in other countries, and their friends here, who want to destroy the USA and the West along with it.