LBJ was behind JFK's assassination, upcoming book contends

Knight Ridder Newspapers ^ | Aug. 20, 2003 | HYE JEONG

[justshutupandtakeit]

Such interesting questions were routinely ignored by the Warren Commission. Perhaps that will allow you to understand why so many people have NO belief in its conclusions. 75-80% of Americans do not believe them.

It would be one thing if there were just a few anomalies and contradictions and something entirely different when there are hundreds. Virtually every element of evidence is riddled with impossibilities, distortions and out right fraud.

Perhaps the worst example of fraud by the WC defenders is the book by Posner which is filled with mistakes, illogic and distortions ON ALMOST EVERY PAGE. Anyone reading that book with a critical eye can easily see that the author is dishonest and clumsy at it.

But the clearest evidence of its fraudulent nature is the universal praise the RATmedia gave it.

[justshutupandtakeit]

I have seen nothing to indicate Marina still believes LHO was involved in any shooting, including Walker.

Nothing Marina said during the initial weeks or months after the assassination can be given much credence. She was terrified, afraid of deportation and under constant surveillance. I place no value on any of those comments or an undated note "found" OVER A WEEK LATER after all police searches were over. No court would place much probative value is such "evidence."

Even if her comments about the Walker incident are true they do not answer the most significant questions of the event. Witnesses saw two individuals so who was Oswald with? Witnesses saw cars driven away from the scene. Who was driving Oswald? Why was this witness NOT called before the WC? Why did he he tell Walker that he was told NOT to talk about what he had seen? Who told him that and why?

Mrs. Paine did not see the note in the book taken by the police. "Before I left they were leafing through books to see if anything fell out but THAT IS ALL I SAW."

According to "contemporary news stories" which quote Dallas police "saying the recovered bullet" was a 30-06 not a 6.5 millimeter. Sylvia Meagher reports that Walker claimed the bullet exhibited by the HSCA is NOT the same bullet recovered from his home, it was so mangled as to be hardly recognizable as a bullet.

[Shooter 2.5]

I haven't researched the money order but Alex Hidel was Oswald's alias. He used it when passing out the Cuban literature.

Ammo doesn't age to that degree. I have stuff that I reloaded twenty years ago and loaded ammunition from the sixties without a misfire. Winchester doesn't sell junk. Check at a gunstore for the information on ammo.

The MC was the same that he had in the posed photo.

Apparently you have no idea why a scope has to aligned the way it does on a Carcano. Do a little research or ask at a gunshop. It is an unusual setup with these guns THAT DOESN'T AFFECT ACCURACY. Ask at any gunshop.

The rifle wasn't carefully placed back into a foam lined container after it was used. Check with a gunshop and ask what can happen if a scoped rifle is dropped between two boxes on a concrete floor.

Worn or rusty firing pin or not, it fired at the testing with no misfires. The FBI and the NRA did the tests with Oswald's rifle.

A cloth fiber was found at the buttplate. It matched the type of shirt Oswald wore but proving it was Oswald's paricular shirt was impossible.

Carcanos are able to fire three minute angles. Again, ask at any gunshop. No gunshop sells firearms that are dangerously defective.

Again, don't take my word for it, ask at any gunshop and learn something instead of repeating ignorant BS.

[Tares]

Such interesting questions were routinely ignored by the Warren Commission.

Or, alternately, they were considered and dismissed. For example, you state that there were eyewitnesses at the theater that saw Oswald (or someone that looked like him) at 1pm. Please present these eyewitness accounts so that they can be scrutinized for plausibility.

[PhilDragoo]

1) The money order used to pay for it was drawn while LHO was at work. Who drew the money order?

The record shows that the money order for the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was bought at a Dallas post office on Tuesday, March 12. It was purchased early in the morning, yet Oswald's time sheet shows that he had clocked in by 8:00 A.M. that day. The post office did not open until eight o'clock. Anthony Summers, Conspiracy, Paragon, 1989, page 213.

2) No one other than LHO was authorized to receive mail at the PO Box. Alex Hidell was NOT authorized to receive mail there.

FBI report of June 3, 1964: Our investigation has revealed that Oswald did not indicate on his application that others, including an "A. Hidell," would receive mail through the box in question, which was Post Office Box 2915 in Dallas. This box was obtained by Oswald on October 9, 1962, and relinquished by him on May 14, 1963. (CE 2585, Question 12) Sylvia Meagher, Accessories After the Fact, Vintage/Random,, 1967/1976, page 49.

3) The gun was ordered by Alex Hidell.

Order blank purchasing the rifle under the name of "Hidell". Harold Weisberg, Whitewash, Weisberg, 1965, page 29.

4) No one at the PO box could recall Oswald picking up ANY large package at the PO.

No postal worker has ever recalled giving Oswald any such package. Summers, page 551.

5) No one at the PO Box could recall Oswald picking up a rifle mailed to the box.

There is no proof that the rifle addressed to Hidell was handed over to Lee Harvey Oswald by the postal authorities. Meagher, page 50.

6) CONTRARY TO YOUR EARLIER CLAIM, no ammunition was ordered with the rifle from Kleins. WHERE did LHO/Hidell get the MC ammo? It was VERY unusual according to gunsmiths, not readily available.

When the Warren Report appeared, it presented no evidence that Oswald had purchased ammunition for this rifle. Meagher, page 112.

7) The ammo would have been over twenty years old and was poor to begin with according to experts.

Letter from H.J. Gebelein, Assistant Sales Service Manager, WINCHESTER-WESTERN Division, July 14, 1965: Concerning your inquiry on the 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge, this is not being produced commercially by our company at this time. Any previous production on this cartridge was made against Government contracts which were completed back in 1944. Therefore, any of this ammunition whic is on the market today is Government surplus ammunition. Mark Lane, Rush to Judgment, Dell, 1966/1975, page 411.

8) Hidell ordered a 36" long gun. The MC found at the TBD was 40" long. NOT THE SAME GUN.

The actual advertisement offers a 36-inch Carcano rifle weighing 5-1/2 lbs., with catalogue number C20-T750. The rifle ordered by "Hidell" does not correspond with the longer [40.2-inch], heavier rifle found in the Book Depository. Meagher, page 48 footnote.

9) A gunsmith at the Aberdeen Proving Ground examined the MC and reported that the sight had been aligned as if for a left-handed person. Oswald was right handed.

From Aberdeen Proving Ground on April 6, 1964, to counsel for the Commission: There were three pieces in the scope examined by the BRL gunsmith. Two pieces were .015 inches thick, so placed as to elevate the scope with respect to the gun. One piece was .020 inches thick so placed as to point the scope leftward with respect to the gun. The gunsmith observed that the scope as we received it was installed as if for a left-handed man. (CE 2560) Meagher, page 106. Marina Oswald on December 3, 1963. . .told the FBI that Oswald was right-handed. (CE 1401, p. 297). Robert Oswald. . .when he appeared before the Commission on February 20, 1964, . .asserted categorically that Oswald had been right handed (1H 293-294) Meagher, ibid.

10) Sharpshooters for the MC test found the bolt so difficult to operate that it skewed their aim. They also found it to have an odd trigger pull.

"The pressure to open the bolt was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the target." Summers, page 46. There was also comment made about the trigger pull, which is different as far as these firers are concerned. It is in effect a two-stage operation. . .in the first stage the trigger is relatively free, and it suddenly required a greater pull to actually fire the weapon. [Army expert Ronald Simmons to Warren Commission March 31, 1964 (3H 447)] Meagher, page 101.

11) The sight was so unrelated to the rifle's line of fire, and so inexpertly attached , that IT COULD NOT EVEN BE ADJUSTED.

Letter from Hoover to Commission [XXVI, 104]: It is to be noted that at the time of firing these tests, the telescopic sight could not be properly aligned with the target since the sight reached the limit of its adjustment before reaching accurate alignment. Lane, page 123.

12) Witnesses described two shots coming almost simultaneously or even from an automatic weapon. This was impossible with the old hunk of junk purchased through Kleins. The rifle found had a worn and rusty firing pin.

The gap between shots 1 and 2. . .was extraordinarily short. It was, to be precise, a mere 1.66 seconds. Back in 1964, tests conducted by the FBI had shown that the rifle found in the Depository could not be aimed and fired in so short a time. Summers, page 46.

13) Experts were initially reluctant to even test fire this weapon because it had a nasty habit of blowing the firing pin out into the face of the shooter. They also had trouble opening the bolt.

Jack O'connor, after writing in The Rifle Book that the Mannlicher-Carcano action is "terrible", adds that the weapon has "a coy habit of blowing the firing pin out in the shooter's face". [WCR, 193] Lane, page 123.

14) There were no fibers from the clothes Oswald wore to work on the rifle. Fibers from the shirt Oswald was wearing when arrested WERE found on the rifle indicating the frame-up was in full sway as evidence was tampered with and created by rubbing the shirt he was wearing on the gun. But it was the WRONG SHIRT.

There is a special point to make about the fibers found on the rifle butt, which the FBI felt "could have come" from the shirt Oswald was wearing when arrested. Oswald himself remarked while in custody, and long before the forensic import of the shirt was known, that he had changed his shirt at his roominghouse after the assassination. If that was true, then the fibers tend to link Oswald to the rifle through a shirt he was not wearing at the time of the murder. Summers, pages 69-70.

15) This gun was part of a shipment of DEFECTIVE weapons available in lots of 25 for $3.00 each. Compare to Savage 99F at $121.50, Browning Mauser .30-06 $164.50, Winchester 70.300 caliber $134.95. This gun was TOTAL JUNK.

In his testimony when Sebastian Latona--one of the FBI experts on whom the Warren Commission relied--described the murder rifle as a "cheap old weapon" (4H 29), Commissioner Boggs seemed taken aback. "A what?" asked Boggs. "A cheap old weapon," replied Latona. The Commissioners should have been forewarned by other reports in its possession. Among these was an FBI report stating that the rifle in question was part of a shipment of rifles that was the subject of "a legal proceeding by the Carlo Riva Machine Shop to collect payment for the shipment of the rifles which Adam Consolidated Industries, Inc., claims were defective." (CE 1977) John Brinegar, owner of The Gun Sop in Dallas, told the FBI in March 1964 that the Carcano was "a very cheap rifle and could have been purchased for $3.00 each in lots of 25." (CE 2694, p. 11) Meagher, page 101.

[tpaine]

John Brinegar, owner of The Gun Shop in Dallas, told the FBI in March 1964 that the Carcano was "a very cheap rifle and could have been purchased for $3.00 each in lots of 25." (CE 2694, p. 11) Meagher, page 101.

585 -PhilDragoo-



Gee Phil, now I'm totally confused...

We were just told in no uncertain terms, ad nauseum, that if we asked at 'any gun shop' they would fully support the commissions findings..

I guess we MUST believe that the government had only the best interests of the american way, mom, apple pie, and JUSTICE when they certified the Warren Report as de TRUTH! Yasser!

[justshutupandtakeit]

1) Why didn't he have Hidell on the list of eligibles to receive mail at the box IF IT WAS A REAL ALIAS? But that begs the question of how he was able to get money orders WHILE AT WORK?

2)Apparently one of the bullets which struck Kennedy was so defective it penetrated only an inch or so into his back. Without a real autopsy it is impossible to say exactly what happened to it. THERE IS NO PROOF THAT OSWALD EVER BOUGHT ANY AMMO FOR THE GUNS.

3) But the rifle in the "photo" (which appears fake to me at any rate) was NOT the gun ordered. Marina in a interview quoted in Livingstone's book HIGH TREASON 2 stated that the backyard pictures were NOT taken by her. "These aren't the pictures I took."

4) According to the expert the sight was aligned that way because any other way interfered with working the bolt. He also said that the scope was attached very poorly and could not be used as intended. But the FBI said that as well. IT WAS NOT ACCURATE AT ALL. It was JUNK.

5) Good example of the disingeous falsehoods of the defenders. The rifle was NOT thrown down it was placed standing upon its butt between two boxes. The scope was NEVER aligned or attached properly even if it had been thrown down.

6) NO ONE was EVER able to duplicate the shots with THAT rifle. Not the FBI, not Anne Oakley. That gun was CRAP, the SCOPE was CRAP and the ammo was CRAP. That was the last gun anyone wanting to hit anything would have used. If you care to actually see what was said in the WC Report by a gunsmith about sights read the testimony of Charles W. Greener wrt the accuracy of sights on mail order guns. He said unequivocably "The possibility of it being, ESPECIALLY WITH THIS FRAIL MOUNT is, I am sure that mount, according to what little information I have, the possibility of it being real accurate would be pretty small, I think." Yet, you want us to believe that this POS rifle had been moved across the country, stored, disassembled, reassembled but NEVER SIGHTED and Fired prior to November 22, 1963? And you a gun expert?

7) The fiber was not from the shirt Oswald was wearing while at work. This was evidence fabricated to frame him.

8) Gun experts were quoted as believing this MC was a dangerous weapon. Argue with them. It was probably as good a gun as could be expected for 20 year old war surplus which was crap when new.

9)I was quoting gun shop owners and experts such as Mr. Greener and the gunsmith at Aberdeen Proving Grounds other experts who conclude the same things were quoted in the WC Report, including the FBI expert.

[justshutupandtakeit]

Dallas Police took the names of 24 patrons of the Texas Theater who were there when Oswald was arrested. The list "disappeared." Oh, well what's new?

[justshutupandtakeit]

That gun would have been more effective as a weapon had it been THROWN at JFK.

[tpaine]

You're wrong. FR's foremost gun authority has once again invoked the 'ask any gun shop' rule. It ends all controversy.

We MUST believe authority. They tell us truth.

[Tares]

You asserted (post 575): He entered the Theater about 1 o'clock, before Tippet was shot. But there is considerable doubt about this since he got home about 1 according to some.

In response I asked (post 580): Which is it? Was Oswald at his rooming house at 1pm, or was he at the theater? Or were there two "Oswalds" at the theater, an imposter at 1pm, talking to patrons, and the real Oswald, who was at his rooming house at 1pm and entered the theater without paying at about 1:45pm and arrested by Dallas Police? Or was the taxi driver lying and was the housekeeper at Oswald's rooming house lying when she said she saw Oswald at 1pm?

You replied (post 581): Such interesting questions were routinely ignored by the Warren Commission. Perhaps that will allow you to understand why so many people have NO belief in its conclusions. 75-80% of Americans do not believe them.
It would be one thing if there were just a few anomalies and contradictions and something entirely different when there are hundreds. Virtually every element of evidence is riddled with impossibilities, distortions and out right fraud.

I replied (post 584): Or, alternately, they were considered and dismissed. For example, you state that there were eyewitnesses at the theater that saw Oswald (or someone that looked like him) at 1pm. Please present these eyewitness accounts so that they can be scrutinized for plausibility.

Your reply: Dallas Police took the names of 24 patrons of the Texas Theater who were there when Oswald was arrested. The list "disappeared." Oh, well what's new?

This is non-responsive. Like so many critics of the lone-gunman theory, when asked for specific evidence to support a claim, you ignore the request and instead make another unsupported claim that supposedly excuses the need to present evidence supporting the previous claim. Why did you answer the request for eyewitness testimony in support of the claim that Oswald was at the Texas Theater at 1pm by claiming that the Dallas Police lost the list of people in the theater? Does this somehow dispense with the need for you to provide eyewitness testimony in support of your claim? If you can't provide any supporting evidence or testimony on this point, why should it be given any more credence than the claim that Oswald was only one of many surrounding the assassination set up by as a patsy by the Klingons to cover-up alien involvement in earthly affairs? You want proof? Ever see Star Trek? Gene Rodenberry knew the truth. He feared for his life, and couldn't come straight out with it, but if you watch the original series, which he wrote to get the message out, it's all in there: who did it and why. Of course, I can't figure it all out, but Gene knew, and if you question my claim, the simple response is:

Your questions imply some ability to get in the heads of the conspirators which I have never claimed. If I am questioning aspects of the WC case how does that give me the power to divine the answers to your question? Having a question or seeing flaws in the case as presented does not mean I can answer other questions. –justshutupandtakeit post 487

If we could interview Ruby, Giancana, Carlos Marcello, Santos Traficante, J.Edgar Hoover and the Z-Rifle team answers to most of our questions could be found.–justshutupandtakeit post 387

Or Gene Rodenberry, or the Klingons, or the Grey Aliens, or…

I repeat my request: You state that there were eyewitnesses at the theater that saw Oswald (or someone that looked like him) at 1pm. Please present these eyewitness accounts so that they can be scrutinized for plausibility.

[Reaganwuzthebest]

Another fact never fully explained by the lone-nut theorists was that Oswald according to Congressional investigators had been impersonated at the Cuban and Soviet embassies in Mexico City just prior to the assassination. Who was involved with the deception and why?

[Shooter 2.5]

1.The rifle was photographed by Marina and the camera was proven to be the camera that was used. That's a fact because each camera can have scratches and machining marks on the lens that make any picture proven to be from a specific camera. Look it up.

That means Oswald owned the specific Carcano.

2.The ammunition wasn't defective. No one had a misfire when they tested it and the rifle was able to perform the military style groups expected of it. Look up comments from shooters who use Carcanos today. They get four inch groups. The Carcano in question only had to shoot a six inch by ten inch groups at 88 yards or less. That's close to pistol range. Again, don't take my word for it, ask at any gunshop that handles military rifles.

3.Two stage trigger. you're showing your ignorance about triggers. Ask at any gunshop.

4.The Carcano wasn't set up for a left handed shooter or for the bolt. Ask at any gunshop why a Carcano would have a offset scope.

5.The testers had no trouble with the exact firing pin that came with the rifle.

6.Trying to duplicate a specific shot through a living being is next to impossible. Ask any hunter.

That's correct. Don't wallow in ignorance. Ask an expert instead of relying on cyber-legends or people just trying to sell a book. There's plenty of shysters every Sunday at Dealy Plaza. I suppose you believe a man shot out of a manhole because he said so.

Am I an expert? I depends how you interpret that. Anyone can claim a bunch of crap on the internet. Ask someone at any gunshop if I know what I'm writing about.

[Tares]

For your consideration, here's another essay on the brown bag: The brown paper bag and witness evidence

[justshutupandtakeit]

If you are speaking of the taxi driver, Scoggins, he could not positively id Oswald as Tippet's killer.

It is not "non-responsive" to relate the FACT that DPD lost the list of names of theater patrons any more than it would be "non-responsive" to relate the FACT that Kennedy's brain is not available for examination because it was also "lost." Are you claiming there were not 24 witnesses in the theater at the time of the arrest?

Julia Postal, Butch Burroughs were names not "lost" perhaps because they worked at the Theater. Jack Davis, an evangelist, was the man who claimed Oswald appeared to be looking for someone. He was apparently never interviewed by the WC.

My powers of clairvoyance are limited today so I cannot tell you the names of the 24 other witnesses which "disappeared" so conveniently. You believe the DPD would not have taken the names of people in the theater?

I have no idea what you are talking about wrt Star Trek.

None of those people real or fictious have any relation to the list of people who have been associated with CIA assassination plots or whom the HSCA wanted to interview but wound up DEAD under very mysterious circumstances immediately prior to their scheduled interviews.

[Tares]

1) Why didn't he have Hidell on the list of eligibles to receive mail at the box IF IT WAS A REAL ALIAS?

Can you cite some evidence for this? The list of eligibles at the Dallas P.O. Box was not saved. The one in New Orleans, however, did list Hidell. A reasonable conclussion is that the one in Dallas had it listed as well. Your contention that the Dallas PO Box did not have Hidell listed is sheer speculation at best, without a shred of evidence, and is counter to the very convincing circumstantial evidence that the name Hidell was listed as eligible to receive mail---the order for the rifle (to be sent to the PO Box) and the money order were both written in Oswald's handwriting in the name Hidell. From the Warren Commission Report: Post Office Box Applications and Change-of-Address Card :

A post office box application consists of three parts: The first contains directions for use. The second provides applicant's name, address, signature space, box number, date of opening and closing. The third part provides instruction space concerning delivery of mail and names of persons entitled to use the box. Under post office regulations the second part was retained by the Dallas Post Office for box 2915; it destroyed the third part after the box was closed. Based on the standards, the signature "Lee H. Oswald," and other handwriting on the application, was identified as that of Lee Harvey Oswald. The postal clerk appeared to have filled in the balance.

The Fort Worth and Dallas post offices retained two change-of-address orders signed '"Lee H. Oswald": One to "Postmaster, Fort Worth, Tex. ," dated October 10, 1962, to send mail to "Oswald, Lee H" at 2703 Mercedes Av., Fort Worth, Texas" and forward to "Box 2915, Dallas, Texas"; the other to "Postmaster, Dallas, Texas" dated May 12, 1963, requested mail for post office box 2915 be forwarded to "Lee Oswald" at "4907 Magazine St., "New Orleans, La." Based on a comparison with the standards, the handwriting on these orders was identified as that of Lee Harvey Oswald. The New Orleans post office retained the third part of the application for post office box 30061, New Orleans, La., dated June 11, 1963, and signed "L. H. Oswald." Inserted in the space for names of persons entitled to receive mail through the box were written the names "A. J. Hidell" and "Marina Oswald." On the basis of a comparison with the standards, the writing and the signature on the card was identified as the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald.

But that begs the question of how he was able to get money orders WHILE AT WORK?

From the Warren Commission Report: The Mail Order for the C2766 Rifle, the Related Envelope, and the Money Order :

The mail order and envelope for the C2766 rifle were photographed by Klein's on microfilm, and then destroyed. To identify the handwriting an enlarged photograph was made which showed the handwriting characteristics with sufficient clarity to form the basis of an identification. Based on a comparison with the standards, the handwriting on the purchase order and the envelope were identified as Lee Harvey Oswald's. The money order, which was retained by the post office after having been cashed by Klein's, was also identified as being in Oswald's handwriting. These identifications were made on the basis of numerous characteristics in which the writing in both the questioned and standard documents departed from conventional letter forms.

Just because his time sheet says he was at work doesn’t mean he couldn’t have gone to the Post Office during work hours, does it? Or the bosses might have cut him some slack for getting to work a few minutes late?

[Tares]

Your response certainly makes more unsupported assertions. The one thing it does not do, however, is present the evidence asked for.

One more time, I repeat my request: You state that there were eyewitnesses at the theater that saw Oswald (or someone that looked like him) at 1pm. Please present these eyewitness accounts so that they can be scrutinized for plausibility.

[justshutupandtakeit]

One of the major problems with the bag is that it was apparently NOT where it was "found" since photographs of the sniper's nest and the surrounding area did not reveal a "bag." Where was this bag then? Was it cloaked by the Klingon's Cloaking device for a few hours?

As your article states there is NO proof a rifle was in that bag.

[justshutupandtakeit]

FBI reported that it was unable to verify any ability for A. Hidell OR ANYONE other than Oswald to receive mail at that facility. Small samples of handwriting are easy to fake. Since he had Hidell on the New Orleans box it is incongruous that it would NOT (according to the FBI) on the Dallas box.

Let's assume that LHO DID fill out the forms ordering the rifle. Where did he get the influx of cash required to pay off the loans he had received from the State dept.? He had been living hand to mouth barely able to support his family paying down the loan received to get his family to the USA in small amounts when, shortly prior to ordering the rifle, he was able to pay off the hundreds of dollars he owed and order guns. Where did this money come from? He paid off $396 during a period when he earned only $490. Presumably he and his family lived on air.

Oswald had to punch a time clock. In those kinds of jobs there is no leaving without punching in and out. He was at work when someone else bought the money order. This is only one of dozens of examples of Oswald being in two places at once.

To admit this leads to insurmountable difficulties for the WC Report and its defenders.

[justshutupandtakeit]

DPD claimed there were 24 patrons why should I have to name them when it can't? Perhaps the list went to the same twilight zone as the records of the interviews with Oswald while in custody. OR the Cloaking Device is at work again.