Posted on 08/07/2003 10:52:17 AM PDT by Long Cut
The DSArms mount has a good reputation. I've got one of the early DSA mounts on my carbine now, with a TC short-tube illuminated reticle 4x scope in low Weaver rings (the ocular just clears a folding L1A1 rear sight). (Great scope - I've owned several. Of course, they don't make them anymore... ;>) It's a good combination: lines right up, with an excellent cheek weld on the standard 'humpback' stock. It made sense on the heavy barrel (which I just sold to pay off some bills;>), but seems a bit too much for a carbine. A lot of folks seem to mount red dot or holographic sights on the carbines, using the same or similar mounts.
And with quality ammo, what kind of 100 yard groups is a good FAL capable of?
I've heard anything from 1.5 to 3 minutes of angle for a real rifleman with a quality FAL and good ammo. Personnally, I would expect 'service rifle' rather than 'target rifle' accuracy - I would bet, for example, that most FALs can not compete with most M1As. Maybe someone else here has personal experience...
You're definitely right about the 10/22 & shotgun (I own both ;>). For me, anything above and beyond that has been acquired mostly because I just plain enjoy shooting rifles, or because I appreciate the history associated with the firearm...or both (as with my Lee-Enfields ;>)!
;>)
I’ll bite – I may be a “FAL-aholic,” but I’m definitely no expert. (Excuse me while I ramble on about my general ‘lack of qualifications.’ Feel free to skip this part unless you are prone to insomnia - espescially you guys that know more than I do, which is most of you... ;>)
My first FAL was an Israeli FALO (heavy barrel FAL), as marketed by Century International Arms (meaning ‘not as issued by the IDF’). Now, the folks at CIA are referred to at the FAL Files Forums as “angry beavers” – some of the firearms they assemble appear to include just a few too many ‘field expedient’ measures (the worst of their products just won’t function as a result ;>). I got lucky: my ‘thumbhole sporter’ had both good points & bad points, but functioned flawlessly.
Good points: IMBEL receiver (a forged steel receiver produced under official FN license in Brazil) and Israeli parts (the Israelis modified the standard metric FAL design to include a forward-assist charging handle, ‘sand-cut’ bolt carrier, an easier-to-reach mag release, and – IIRC – a slightly larger bolt release).
Bad points: CIA paint job (they actually spray-painted the wood hand guards - while mounted on the rifle! – to match the synthetic thumbhole stock); thumbhole buttstock (which nearly prevented the operator from reaching the safety); one-size-fits-all locking shoulder (the FAL is head spaced by using an appropriately-sized replaceable steel pin, against which the rear of the tilting bolt locks – CIA apparently used the thickest locking shoulders available, and just ground them down to fit); and Israeli parts (some Izzy parts are better than metric; others are just different, such as the barrel [thread], selector, sling swivels, gas plug, sights, and FALO gas piston. Different may also be interpreted to mean ‘non-standard’…). I used the FAL ‘as is’ while I lived in the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia. As I said, it functioned perfectly; magazines were cheap; and the rifle could shoot straighter than I could (I’m an old fart with crappy eyesight, but a friend who fired the rifle called it a 'tack-driver' - he was probably 'blowing smoke'… ;>). I purchased unissued Israeli wood furniture for it (I think the gopher wood, or whatever they used, is nice – and it beats the heck out of CIA spray paint, no matter what your preferences are; I installed the hand guards, which I could do legally); and also bought an entire Israeli FALO parts kit for spares ($200 for an entire rifle, less the upper receiver & magazine. With the FAL, the upper receiver is the serial-numbered FFL part).
FAL-aholic Rule #1. You can not have enough parts kits. Ever. This is one of the most important advantages of FAL ownership: you can stock up on spares (which you may never use) for next to nothing. (I cringe at the thought of paying for a complete spares kit for an SR-25/AR-10, or even an M1A – there is no way in h@ll I could afford it.) Complete FAL parts kits have been available for $99 or less; in new condition for ~$250. Most importantly, since you will probably never use the parts kits to replace any broken parts, they will be available for you to build additional FALs!
When the D@mocrats in Kalifornia passed their State ‘assault weapons’ ban , I disassembled the rifle to remain legally compliant without registering the firearm – and began looking for a transfer to a ‘Red State.’ When the transfer finally came through (several years later), I got out of Dodge (I intended to piss on the Kalifornia State line when leaving, but my wife thought it ‘unwise’… ;>)
Since that time, I’ve completely rebuilt the Izzy FALO: I basically tore everything down (except the barrel), because I wanted to see how it worked. (The official FN users manual is definitely worth having! ;>) You can get rid of the ‘butthole stock’ if you install the appropriate number of US-manufactured parts.
FAL-aholic Rule #2. Stay legal - it's no big deal! The dumb-@ss 1994 Clinton-Feinstein ‘assault weapons ban’ apparently requires (I am no lawyer – CAVEAT EMPTOR! ;>) that a ‘post-ban’ FAL contain no fewer than SIX US-manufactured parts; if it has a ‘muzzle thingy’ (muzzle brake) the number apparently rises to SEVEN. The most popular “compliance” parts provided by the American FAL ‘support industry’ are pistol grip, hammer, trigger, sear, gas piston, charging handle, magazine followers, and magazine floor plates. (First Son Enterprises was my primary source of quality, US-made “compliance” parts. ;>) There are others available as well, but these are the ones I’ve selected (and I go with SEVEN, even though my rifles only required SIX – I believe in insurance). Let’s hope the AWB sunsets on schedule – it would be nice to use actual military parts, instead of functionally-identical-but-maybe-not-quite-milspec aftermarket parts…
After doing my best to restore the FALO to original configuration (the muzzle threads had been cut off, so there was no way to attach the ‘boat-anchor’ bipod from my spares kit without swapping barrels – which I saw no need to do), I decided to build a second FAL using the Izzy parts kit, augmented with IMBEL parts (which were widely available at the time). Using Gunplumber’s FAL ‘Cook Book’ (which I down-loaded ;>) and an official FN FAL manual for assembly/disassembly, I put together 16.25”-barreled FAL carbine (shortening one of the plentiful & inexpensive IMBEL barrels, rather than the hard-to-come-by Izzy barrel ;>). I was careful; read the instructions; learned from other folks' mistakes; and took my time. As built, it looks beautiful and 'runs like a top.'
FAL-aholic Rule #3. Spend time at the FAL Files Forums. Pay attention to Gunplumber and other knowledgeable individuals. Feel free to ask questions – even what you think might be stupid questions. It will save you time, money, and frustration, whether you are building, buying, or just considering an FAL…
There you have it: one and nine-tenths FAL builds (plus miscellaneous Mauser & Lee-Enfield WECSOG projects) are the only qualifications I possess. My advice is worth every penny you paid for it…
;>)
I've been eyeing one or another FAL clone for years, but some things about it elude my pea brain. For instance, how often should one adjust the gas regulator, and how is this done?
The adjustable gas system is one of the advantages of the FAL design. Generally speaking, you may have to make adjustments when changing ammunition, or when the rifle gets really dirty. There is a knurled ring around the gas tube, just to the rear of the front sight, that can be turned to cover or uncover the gas exhaust port. The ring can usually be turned using your fingers if the rifle is cold; if you’ve been firing it, use a bullet nose or a wrench designed for that purpose. The wrench looks like a choke tube wrench for a shotgun: various FAL pocket tools include a light-weight version of the wrench, or you can buy one made just for that purpose - or you can make one (which I did ‘for grins,’ using 1/8” thick aluminum bar stock from the local hardware emporium).
To adjust the gas system for a new type of ammunition (or for your initial firing of your new FAL), you just turn the ring to the left (IIRC) until the ring uncovers the exhaust port. Load one round in the mag; insert the mag; chamber the round; and fire. If the bolt does not lock back, it means there is not enough gas entering the gas system. Turn the ring one click to the right, moving it slightly forward to cover the exhaust port (keeping more gas in the gas system), and repeat. Keep repeating until the bolt locks back – then turn two additional clicks to the right to ensure reliable function (as per the FN manual).
If you put 1,000 rounds through the rifle (or drop it in the mud ;>) and the rifle stops cycling properly (failure-to-eject or failure-to-feed), and you don’t have time to clean it, tighten the gas adjustment ring. This will (as described above) route more gas into the gas system, where it can push on the piston - and (theoretically ;>) restore functioning.
I've heard that they sometimes break gas pistons; are these difficult to replace?
For awhile, there were US-manufactured “compliance” pistons that were essentially made in two pieces – these are the only pistons I’ve ever heard of that have suffered breakage. The milspec FAL pistons are solid steel: I can’t even imagine what it would take to break one (one reason the FAL weighs as much as an M-1). If you have to, you can replace the gas piston in less than 30 seconds: depress the plunger on the gas plug (that thing sticking out just below and in front of the front sight), rotate 90 degrees, and the piston pops out the front of the gas tube. Replace the piston, push it into the tube with the plug, rotate the plug, and you’re done.
FAL-aholic Rule #4. Beware the gas plug! If you install the gas plug upside-down, the FAL will function as a single shot rifle. It was designed this way – with the plug upside-down, rifle grenades could be fired without damaging the gas system. Installing it upside-down is a common mistake, but if you pay attention, you won’t have any problems.
Lastly, PLEASE, will someone explain, in simple terms, this business of "metric" FALS vs. "Inch" FALs? The distinction drives me nuts. How do you tell? What mags work with which ones?
In simple terms, “metric” FALs were built by countries which used the metric system, while “inch” FALs were built in countries using the English system. IIRC, “inch” FALs are also referred to as “commonwealth-pattern” FALS. Think ‘English language’ or ‘British commonwealth:’ Britain, Canada, Australia, India, plus the United States (I believe the T-48 was “inch” pattern). Just about everything else is “metric” – except Israeli, which is mostly “metric.”
(I believe I’ve read that the “metric” pattern FALs were actually based on an original “inch” pattern design, and the nominally “metric” thread pitches, etc., are simply conversions from common “inch” dimensions…)
As to ‘how do you tell’ the difference – sometimes you can’t, unless you’re a ‘bonafide expert’ (which I am not ;>). There are probably a lot of ‘FrankenFALs’ (mixed parts guns) out there as a result of our dumb-@ss ‘gun control’ laws, personal preferences, and pure expediency. My first FAL (the CIA Israeli FALO) was an example of the latter. It was built on an IMBEL receiver – and the IMBELS are usually metric. Metric is generally ‘good’ when you’re working with Israeli parts (since Israeli parts are mostly metric – but beware the barrel threads! ;>). The IMBEL receiver in question, however, had been produced for CIA, which was assembling mostly “inch” pattern FALs at the time. It was therefore milled to accept an “inch” pattern action cover (which has ‘ears’ at the back) and an “inch” pattern folding charging handle. Neither modification was required for use with Israeli parts, but CIA used the same receiver for both their “inch” and Israeli FALs. (Not that the receiver was correct for the “inch” pattern rifles, either – since the mag well was not cut for the “inch” mags!)
Which brings us to the magazine question. All FAL mags have a little ‘lip’ or ledge sticking out of the upper-front of the magazine: the ‘lip’ fits into a recess in the front of the magazine well in the receiver, and helps keep the mag from falling out. The metric mags have this lip ‘punched out’ of the sheet metal used for the mag body, while (IIRC ;>) the “inch” mags have a bigger, thicker ‘lip’ welded onto the front of the mag. Because the metric ‘lip’ is smaller than the “inch” ‘lip,’ the metric mags will – in theory – fit an “inch” receiver. In practice, the metric mags tend to fit too loosely in “inch” receivers for reliable functioning. Most folks use “inch” mags in “inch” receivers, and metric in metric. The “inch” pattern may be more durable – but metric mags tend to be easier to find. (Unless you want a 30-round mag – the “inch” pattern 7.62 NATO Bren gun mags have generally been more readily available than metric 30-round mags. Personally, I stick with the 20s… )
As archy pointed out, the mag floor plates tend to be different, too - but there are metric mags out there with "inch" pattern floorplates. Whatever you buy, I recommend buying steel mags (aluminum mags are available, but why bother?), and I recommend buying new (for $10, why not?).
Other major differences between “inch” and metric include muzzle thread, front & rear sights, and pistol grip attachment. Minor differences (meaning you can probably make the parts interchange with some modification) include selector, mag release, furniture, etc. For example, I’ve got a spare British “inch” bolt & ‘sand cut’ bolt carrier that work perfectly in my metric carbine; and many folks prefer the British selector for use in metric rifles (which I think is why the L1A1 selectors are a bit tough to locate as spare parts).
Oh, and just how much skill is needed if I wish to build my own? I'm no gunsmith, and my workshop has no lathes or other machine tools. Can I still do this?
You won’t need machine tools for a standard build. I’m not a gunsmith, either: I got by with a receiver wrench, a bench vice (used - with blocks - as a barrel vice), pin gauges & head space gauges, butt stock tool, plus miscellaneous punches, screw drivers, a long steel rod, abrasives, etc. Because I shortened & recrowned the barrel, I also used a pipe cutter, hacksaw, a large brass bolt, and a muzzle crown tool from Brownells. I also used a Dremel tool (almost a requirement for your WECSOG certificate – at least if you believe what you hear at the FAL Files Forums ;>) and an electric drill; and ‘invented’ an inexpensive and amazingly efficient parts oven (for baking high temperature spray-on coatings) constructed from stove pipe and a heat gun (perhaps my greatest contribution to WECSOG technology ;>). I found ‘timing’ the barrel to be the toughest part: in the end, I managed it quite nicely with the aforementioned steel rod, but there are more specialized tools available to simplify the process if you are willing to spend a little extra money...
There is a good on-line description of an FAL build here: http://wecsog.org/fal/carbine/
Or should i just savbe up for a few years to get a DMS version?
It depends on what your priorities are. Some folks want the best – and you can get the best from Arizona Response Systems (http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/) or perhaps DSArms, or a few other folks. Some folks want the best - but will never get it, because something will always come up with a higher priority for funding. Personally, I just like to do things for myself. Plus, if you build it yourself, you can fund it a piece at a time: parts kit, receiver, compliance parts, tools. If you live near a ‘WECSOG graduate,’ you might even be able to borrow the tools & get some live-and-in-person assistance from someone who got started ahead of you…
;>)
If the trigger pull is rough, it may be the sear (rather than the trigger) that needs work - but replacing the trigger should at least buy you a 2-stage pull...
;>)
LOL!
;>)
This is why I love this thread...
The weekly thread, in my opinion, should have no set topic. Instead, it should be like, well, the porch at your local gun shop. That is, a place where we get together on non-shooting days to talk guns in general, exchange information about loads, favorite weapons, etc.
Say one of us got a new piece and range-tested it. We'd all hear the tale and comment on it that week. Also, we'd (of course) shoot the breeze about Second Amendment stuff in general.
I've got some real good ideas, but I'm due back on base at 0730 on the 25th, and I'll be driving there for the two days prior. I'm my new shop's Assistant Leading Petty Officer, as well as its Training Petty Officer, and PLUS I'm still a Naval Aircrewman, subject at all times to the Flight Schedule, so I probably won't be able to post and manage an entire thread for a couple of months, but I'm sure the talent is out there.
Maybe the threads could go up, say, on a Sunday afternoon and run for the week. Then we could talk about all the rounds that got fired up over the weekend.
You know, just before my first-ever hunt with my father many, many moons ago, the gun store we went to to get my ammo and gear had a front porch, as well a an old dog of indeterminate lineage sleeping on it. We spent some time there chewing the fat with the old duffers about. To an 11-year-old, it was like I was now accepted into some larger fraternity of Men.
I'm certain that most of us all have similar stories. Stuff like that would make such threads great, instead of just "good".
I don't think that it's possible to improve on the GP-11 Swiss 7.5mm match ammo for accuracy, and the round is healthy enough to take down any North American game critter.
I picked up a primo C&R Schmidt-Rubin K-31 for $170 at a show in Reno with 99% bluing on it and superior wood. I haven't seen a nicer one yet. The Portugese ammo that I got with it was disapppointing, but the accuracy really came to life using some Ruag GP-11 match ammo I bought. It's non-corrosive, but non-reloadable.
My Schmidt-Rubin might have the best trigger out of all my rifles in the safe, and is probably only bested by a S&W Performance Center .357 revolver I've got.
Tet68, did you remove the buttplate with a screwdriver to find the orange ID tag of the last owner of your K-31? Go ahead and look under there. :)
It was going to be a prototype, but what the heck...
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