IDF Beginning The Changeover From M-16 to Tavor T.A.R.-21

Israel National News ^ | 21:21 Jul. 21, '03 / 21 Tammuz 5763

[TLI]

accommodate a 30 round magazine and sustain a rate of fire of 750 - 900 rounds per minute, and have the following specifications: "

I would love to have a rifle that will SUSTAIN 700 - 900 rounds per minute . . . I just wonder how the barrel doesn't melt.

Muzzle velocity (m/sec) 890

Thats meters per second.. come to about 2,670 feet persecond, about right for 65 grn .223 rounds from a 16 inch barrel.

[Joe Brower]

Interesting comments on the FNC. I didn't know that about the firing pins -- the ones I fired both had several thousand rounds of milsurp run through them without a problem. The fellow who owned them did have a couple of spares from Armalite, I believe, but heck, I keep similar spares for my ARs, M1A, etc., etc., so I didn't think anything of it.

The trigger pull on both was acceptable for a battle rifle, and superior to all my stock ARs except for my Colt R6601.

One thing I noticed about the FNC was how it pitches the brass -- they fly at least thirty feet almost straight out, spinning like a buzzsaw the whole way. Automatically provides supressive fire on your right flank! $;-)

[archy]

Does anyone know if this gun accepts M-16 mags? If not, then even with a sunset of the AWB the mags will end up being very expensive.

Yep. One of the design requirements for the TAR-21 was the use of the NATO STANAG 4179 magazine used in the M16, British SA-80 and FNC 5.56mm rifles. It's that feature that has the Turks considering the Tavor over the Galil, though the Galil can be fitted with an adapter to accept the NATO magazine, though whether the Turks go with the Israeli plastic version of the M16 magazine, the British/H&K steel version, the common aluminum American versions or something of their own devising is yet to be seen. Likewise, I bet the Israelis are hedging their bets on the m16 magazine too, and the troop trials with the Givatis should have shown up any potential weaknesses.

Hmmm, a 3.5 kilo carbine with a 100-round Beta-C double snail drum. Now that's an interesting thought.... -archy-/-

[archy]

Nothing excites me more than the thought of Jews with guns!

Mazel tov!

[archy]

You won't find a better fire control group anywhere. ... Er, I meant 'more rugged fire control group anywhere'.

[The KG9 Kid]

Oh. c'mon. We've seen Garand fire control internals break before. :D

Point taken, though.

[LTCJ]

Nope. *Perfect* would include downward or forward-through-the-handguard ejection, making the rifle suitable for use by a left-handed or master-eyed shooter

5.56-burn-on-my-collarbone BUMP

[LTCJ]

Nothing excites me more than the thought of Jews with guns!

LOL.

Oddly enough, if I were trying to divine if you were either Jewish or Arab, that phrase would be of absolutely no help.

[ko_kyi]

"Nothing Personal"

[archy]

Oh. c'mon. We've seen Garand fire control internals break before. :D

Point taken, though.

And there are problems with the safety nose breaking, as well, particularly in early versions. That's something less of a fault then the early Australian F88s whose trigger housings and other components were found to melt if more than three magazines were fired through them full-auto. I suppose that's one way to reinstill a healthy respect for one-a-a-time marksmanship and hits that count with the troops, but it's not at all one I favour. Neither, it seems, do most of the Diggers so encumbered.

Fine, handy little carbinme for the Boy Navy cadets, though.

-archy-/-

[archy]

5.56-burn-on-my-collarbone BUMP

I'm not a lefty, but practice working with my rifles as a southpaw anyway, having mangled fingers and spent lengthy periods time with either hand in a cast at various periods. And you never know when you'll have to deal with the offside of a doorway or building corner, or from the driver's side of a vehicle.

While having hot empty brass bounce off my nose is indeed an irritation, it's not quite as bad as having a HOT! empty case get caught between my glasses and eyelid. That's downright distracting.

Nevertheless, I've worked with bullpups extensively, and like them, and of those I've had some experience with, the French FAMAS is my first pick and the British SA80, much despised and condemned by those who've never used or cared for one, comes second. We'll see how the Tavor does, perhaps fairly soon....

But I have a few ideas of my own, too, and like I said, downward ejection would be the way to go. Of course, if I could have ANYTHING....

[grapeape]

Gentlemen,
I need the opinion of soldiers who have used the M-16 in a prolonged combat situation or who have interviewed them at length about their weapons.

I have found through my friends and contacts that there are many individuals in our military who are very dissatisfied with the M-16. As a person who is politically active, I am interested in effecting change in this area if it is warranted.

I would like to know if you think that this weapon should be changed to something else. Should there be a competition to change it or should the pentagon reissue new specs first.

All of this assumes the new weapon could fit into the Army’s “Land Warrior” system if need be.

Thanks for your time,
Grapeape

[archy]

You won't find a better fire control group anywhere.

... Er, I meant 'more rugged fire control group anywhere'.

[Sparta]

I'm not presently in the armed forces, though I'm joining the ROTC in college.

I believe the M-16 should go. My problem with it is the caliber (5.56 NATO). It just simply isn't powerful enough. Also, the M-16 is having jamming problems again (however, these can be prevented by daily cleanings of the weapon) I favor going to a 6mm caliber based on the action of either the FAL or the German G-3.

However, if we decide to stay with 5.56 NATO, I think either the G-36 from Germany (already a part of the XM-29 program) or the FN2000 from Belgium is a better bet.

I would like to see open competition for the new battle rifle instead of the Pentagon issuing specs. The Pentagon can modify it to their specs after the rifle has been chosen.

[grapeape]

May I assume from your name that you are going to Michigan State?

[Sparta]

No. Southeastern Louisiana University

[Cap'n Crunch]

Where's the bayonet? THERE AIN'T NO BAYONET!

[The KG9 Kid]

No, Archy... A 'fire control group'. What you posted is a picture of a spring-loaded Commie garden shed latch.

[The KG9 Kid]

"... That's something less of a fault then the early Australian F88s whose trigger housings and other components were found to melt if more than three magazines were fired through them full-auto."

That's an old urban legend still making it's way around military gun circles, Archy. The lie was started by some ex-Australian Army colonel schmuck who didn't like the switch to the synthetic AUG from the FN-FAL.

Australian armorers proved it was nonsense by burning through ten 42-round mags in a row until the barrel was cherry red. The AUG never gets warm around the trigger housing group or where the plastic stock meets the receiver.

It's 100% nonsense. Every once in awhile it gets repeated now and then.

The AK is the one that has handguards that catch fire in sustained fire, by the way. There's a Knob Creek video of that.

[grapeape]

I'm familiar with the school.

Have you talk to any combat veterans about their feelings on what America should do about the M-16?