Men Behaving Badly - Why?

MND ^ | July 15, 2003 | Karl Glasson, Ph.D.

[Cogadh na Sith]

It's a shame that a really fascinating discussion has deteriorated into a food fight because some can't keep their emotions out of it.

I know I can't....

My ex blackmailed me for years by threatening to call the cops on me for false domestic violence... For that priviledge, I'm now allowed to pay the debts she ran up in my name that I didn't know about, and give her half of everything I managed to save (she didn't work).

There are three partners to any marriage, the man, the woman, and the state. The state is a system designed to punish a man for supposed transgressions of previous men and give rewards and succor to women in order to gain more dependents and power.

I, for one, won't play anymore. A woman who insists on a state-sanctioned marriage is in effect saying: "I love you now, but if I meet someone more fun, I want the kids and half of everything you worked for."

It's so screwed-up now, that the only way I would know that a woman actually loves me is if she doesn't insist on a legal union.

[Windsong]

Someone must have REALLY hurt you awhile back. :(

[Ta Wee]

"It is interesting that centuries of being chattel, of being considered less than human did not drive western women to crime, violence, and mayhem."
I'd say baby killing is criminal, violent and tends toward mayhem.

Before indulging in such sanctimonious tones, you should do some research on infanticide and child abandonment in all manner of cultures, and the motivations behind such.

I suppose you are going to say that the man never lived who did not want his children.

[Tall_Texan]

The state is the one who gives the marriage legal standing. Because of this, they feel they have the right to intervene. I'm not saying I approve of that - it's just how it is.

While some would say that maybe, then, the state should keep out of marriage, this would actually invite same-sex couples and others to cheapen the institution even further than it has already become. So the state must stay involved although I'd prefer they kept a healthy distance.

As for your unfortunate situation, stories like yours are part of the reason I'm a lifelong batchelor (and, consequently, a lifelong celibate). I'd really love to find a girl and settle into a longterm wonderful bliss-filled marriage. Some seem to find it and I am both happy for them and jealous of them. But the risks are, frankly, much greater than the perceived rewards. I've met many divorced men in your shoes. I don't envy them, even in the least.

[=Intervention=]

That was NOT the point in any way, shape, or fashion -- you must be insane.

[Ta Wee]

=>That was NOT the point in any way, shape, or fashion -- you must be insane.

Men who only find other men fit company should have their own planet, and leave the rest of humanity in peace.

[EdReform]

BTTT

[A.J.Armitage]

Why, if you don't like it, you must be unmanly. A REAL man would go and say, "Please, ma'ams, may I have another?"

[SauronOfMordor]

That was NOT the point in any way, shape, or fashion -- you must be insane.

She's not insane, just an extremely bitter divorced woman whose husband seems to have turned gay left her for another man, and managed to not give her any assets or alimony. For example, check out some of her posts on Young men are running from marriage:

MY cats are better company than men. I don't have to stop and explain what I'm talking about to them constantly, or define my vocabulary. The last guy I dated was an engineer, and it was like running school constantly, explaining to this guy what words meant, what history something referred to...that the words enumerate and remunerate DO NOT mean the same thing.

137 posted on 07/02/2003 11:40 AM EDT by Ta Wee

------

Well, MY ex ran up about 11k in debt. I took his deck of credit cards away from him, turned the thermostat to 50, and lived like a peasant until the debt was paid. THEN I left. And I never saw a nickel from him, even though he was busy taking vacations with his boyfriend, and I was sleeping on the floor of my basement apartment.

But of course, those awful women always get EVERYTHING, don't they?

258 posted on 07/02/2003 2:09 PM EDT by Ta Wee

------

She seems to have had enough of men in general, and her ex seems to have had enough of women in general

[Cogadh na Sith]

My pal has a word for the phenomenon of cats leaving chicks for other cats:

"Advancing Towards the Rear"

It was all summed up by a sign I saw at a fast food joint in my town:

YOUR CHOICE:

CHIX QUESADILLA
OR
BROWNIE DELIGHT

.99!!

[SauronOfMordor]

My eldest daughter has a friend who's father left, had a sex-change, and is now a practicing lesbian. He/she/it likes girls, but wants to be a woman. Go figure. The friend refers to me as "adoptive dad".

[Nowhere Man]

Nick, again I think you're one of the smartest here. I still believe in fighting for what's right, I guess many times I feel like Eddie Willers. B-) Still the way things are going, I can weep for my country and society. I see a lot of times where many men and women shirk their responsibilities due to the PCness of our society. I see it personally too.

Still, I hope someday I find a nice repsosible lady who shares good, old-fashioned, American values to settle down with and raise kids, but it seems like there are not that many out there, perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places too. Still, Nick, you have a lot of good points and takes on situations, it really makes me think.

[=Intervention=]

Ah, I understand. Hatred and stark raving madness can be difficult to distinguish at a distance...:)

[johnb838]

Heres an example: If they keep demonizing cops for using sufficient force to protect themselves when making an arrest, they ain't gonna make the arrests. And good men won't want to be cops.

Like Homer once said "If you hate your work, don't quit. Just go in anyway and do a really half-assed job. It's the American way."

[SauronOfMordor]

Heres an example: If they keep demonizing cops for using sufficient force to protect themselves when making an arrest, they ain't gonna make the arrests. And good men won't want to be cops.

During the LA Riots following the Rodney King verdict, the cops realized that the only way to stop the riots would be to open fire on the rioters. They also knew that if they did, they would be crucified. So they left and let the riot happen without them

[Nick Danger]

Most women are not so stupid as to find this alluring, attractive, or any indication of a man behind the words.

I appreciate the advice. You need to understand that I'm new at this. In my day there was no such thing as trying to find dates on the Internet. We didn't even have the Internet. I had to learn to get my way with the wenches using charm, wit, and my good looks. But that all seems so... Twentieth Century now.

There are several women around this forum who know me personally from various Freep events around the country. They will tell you that I am not only charming and witty, I genuinely like women... and for all the right reasons. In fact they'll tell you that if I wasn't such a pot-bellied old fart, they'd think I was pretty cool. But I wasn't always a pot-bellied old fart. There was a time when, if I hit the 19th Street bars on Friday night and came home empty, it was because of a mistake.

If by 9:30 I already know that this woman has a cat, and that her father was a Marine drill sergeant who always wanted a boy, it's nobody's fault but mine if I'm still sitting there talking to her at 11. Sometimes we men get distracted, and forget we're on a mission.

But you're right, this Internet thing throws me. Especially after that Classy Blue-eyed Redhead turned out to be a 300-pound sex offender named Bruno. Say what you want about singles bars, you can spot the 300-pound sex offenders (and the 300-pound single women) from 100 yards away, and go for the blonde goddess instead. At least that was the plan I always followed.

So you don't think the civilization is at risk from all these feminist-inspired legal triumphs, eh? I do. I don't know whether to laugh or cry when, as is happening more frequently now, I see young men coming into these threads saying, "Yep. That's exactly how it is. No frigging way am I getting married. Not these days."

I was ranting about this eight or ten years ago. At that time, nobody believed it, and nobody wanted to hear it. To me it's simple economics. Raise the price of marriage to men, and fewer men will want it. Raise it some more, and then some more, and then some more, and you will see a "social phenomenon" of young men avoiding marriage like the plague. And I was condemned as a nut for saying this.

Well, here we are, years later, with the women's rags full of "Why won't men commit?" articles, and ever-larger numbers of young men obviously refusing to play "Human Society". And of course these young men are condemned as irresponsible and immature and so on. But they are doing exactly what any economist would expect the hypothetical "rational man" to do when presented with a transaction that is horribly skewed against them. They choose not to enter into the transaction.

So do I feel like the Great Karnak for seeing this coming? No. I'm saddened to see it come true. Because it means my civilization is going to fall over. For a lot of reasons, this system will not change, except to become even more onerous towards men. It is a vicious circle, and the one thing I am certain it will not end in is a nation of stable, two-parent families raising children.

I look around the world, and I don't see any serious civilization that has not adopted lifelong pair-bonding with two-parent families raising children as their basic social unit. The Indians, the Chinese, the Arabs, the Japanese, the Persians, the Western Europeans... all these hugely different cultures with different traditions and different religious beliefs... all adopted the same basic structure for raising their young. Can we find other systems in the world? Sure. But this tribe lives in the bushes, that one herds camels in the desert... these are the people who never made it out of the grass hut stage of development.

Nowhere on this Earth is there an example of a successful culture with serious accomplishments where children are raised by women, while men send them money in the mail. If it's ever been tried before, those people are gone now. They're extinct. Then I look the fertility rates in Western countries. They're below the replacement rate, in many cases by a lot. So we're becoming extinct. And I post rants about this.

And to you this sounds like I hate women. Instead of futzing up this thread with your personal injuries, and individual examples of 'he done her wrong,' how about lifting your sights a bit... above youself, above what happened to your friend Suzie, and look at the big picture for a change. Your culture is going out of business. Do you care?

[Nowhere Man]

The state is the one who gives the marriage legal standing. Because of this, they feel they have the right to intervene. I'm not saying I approve of that - it's just how it is.

While some would say that maybe, then, the state should keep out of marriage, this would actually invite same-sex couples and others to cheapen the institution even further than it has already become. So the state must stay involved although I'd prefer they kept a healthy distance.

As for your unfortunate situation, stories like yours are part of the reason I'm a lifelong batchelor (and, consequently, a lifelong celibate). I'd really love to find a girl and settle into a longterm wonderful bliss-filled marriage. Some seem to find it and I am both happy for them and jealous of them. But the risks are, frankly, much greater than the perceived rewards. I've met many divorced men in your shoes. I don't envy them, even in the least.

You know what, dude, you hit the nail on the head as well, I feel the same way you do sometimes. Of course, I'm trying to get my career and financial life together even before I can entertain the notion of settling down with the love of my life and having kids. I'm 37 and there are times when I lay awake at night and wonder, "is there anyone out there for me?" Still, it isn't a thing to rush, I've seen the consequences of that. I pretty much pray at night asking God to guide me in that regard.

I knowl ike you, there are times I feel jealous and happy when I see some of my friends and people my age together having a family. I'm 37. I really didn't feel one way or naother towards it until I was almost 34 in 2000. I went to a military airshow where I knew the C-17 pilot from when he was a kid. I remember giving him an F-15 flight simulator when he was little for the Apple, hopefully that helped push him int an Air Force career. Anyhoo, while I was waiting for him to fire up the C-17 for a demonstration, I saw a little red haired girl and her younger brother in the grass between the tarmac just playing. She must have been about 3 or 4, her brother maybe a year or so younger. I said to myself, "I wish I had that, a wife and kids."

Well, one of my co-workers at one place I worked at, he got married at 47 and had his first baby while pushing 50, so maybe there is hope for me. B-)

[disclaimer]

I do respect God. He is first in my life, but the churches in my area just stink--so I'm kind of on my own with that one... The Protestant ones are unbelievably liberal and I'm not Catholic, though my ex was--I used to go to Mass with her (when she used to go, before she got into New Age crap and Tarot reading) and the girls were dressed like 'hoochie-mamas'. I mean it was pretty cool, T & A and lots of exposed flesh, but not really what I would go to church for....

You sound like me when it comes to the church - my wife and I are Catholics. Of the five or so churches in my area, two are traditional enough that I can respect them, although we get the occasional organist that substitutes 'people' for 'mankind' in the hymns To me, that's an expression of hatred not inclusive language since 'mankind' never meant 'male-kind' by definition. Regardless, the churches have been feminized to some degree and have all kinds of flaws, but I reasoned that in countries where the church is outlawed, or in the days when the church was just becoming established in Rome, those who believe were for the most part on their own. So, I scouted out a parish where they have their act together and I do what I can to improve it. There are still those women that show up looking like they're going to a night club though.

I'm sorry to hear about your ex-wife, she reminds me of a lady I dated for awhile. She followed the god of new-age feminism more than the church as she chose to focus on the criticism of the faith instead of researching her faith for herself to understand it. There is nothing more important in life. If you'd like to read about this subject, a book I'd suggest is A Twist of Faith - How feminist spirituality is changing the church and betraying the women it promised to heal

I don't believe that [Women want the security to know that the man they marry will be there with them and the children for their entire life] is true anymore. It may have never been true. I believe that we do not, and cannot, know what women want because they don't know what they want. They only wanted 'security' and a 'life-time mate' because they suffered badly if they didn't.

I agree that most women don't know what they want. We've all been fed the idea that life is all about entertaining ourselves or seeking fame and fortune but nothing is said about family. Funny though, our most cherished memories is of our family. Big news items these days are that women are finding themselves too old to have children and a family - what they really wanted after all. I didn't try to figure out what women want, I knew what I wanted in a woman and I expressed it. It's tough today to find a woman who first of all, wants to be a woman and wants a family - but they are out there. That was my approach and I met my wife at Ballys (health club /gym) of all places.

No, they will use it [then women will try to use the state to obtain security] to get money, fun, power and to avoid responsibility

Feminists have organized the biggest 'union' ever and have power - power corrupts.

[Nowhere Man]

I believe that back in Victorian times, middle-class gentlemen were more likely to marry at around or after 30, to women in their early twenties. Marriage was deferred until the man could support a wife, which meant that men married well-into their careers

That is so true. I'm into the Victorian/Edwardian era historically and for the most part men past the age of 25 to maybe in the mid 30's and even a little beyond usually went to social events like dances and the like. Usually the women there were like 17, 18 to the early 20's and that's how some people found each other in order to court and hopefully marry.

I've heard from various Biblical scholars that Joseph was around 30 or so and Mary was 15 to about 18 when she married Joseph and had Jesus so there is precident where the man concentrated on his career and taking care of many issues before taking a wife.

I guess deep down inside I think I found a good term to describe me politically and socially, "neo-Victorian." B-)

[jejones]

63%? How did they determine that, I wonder?