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Here is what the acolytes of solar power don't want you to know...
self
| July 15, 2003
| Boot Hill
Posted on 07/15/2003 3:16:56 AM PDT by Boot Hill
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To: Boot Hill
Give it up.
The combination of almost total ignorance of science, and a blind devotion to wishfull thinking in the form of a dogmatic religion, makes these folks immune to any logic or to any influence by facts.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation." Spencer
121
posted on
07/15/2003 9:57:22 AM PDT
by
Publius6961
(Californians are as dumm as a sack of rocks)
To: Wonder Warthog
Boot Hill says: "
I am an engineer. I've spent a life time in electronics and optics. I am thoroughly familiar with the technology and the economics of solar power."
Wonder Warthog says: "You couldn't tell it from your vanity post."
Get your mouth and attitude under control.
To: dark_lord
dark_lord says: "...
you should be able to read it online in a couple weeks..."
Sounds interesting, but if the article is speaking of the Kamen Stirling engine, it is only 20% efficient at converting solar energy to electricity and at the expense of having a large mirror array that must be constantly moved about to focus the light on the engine. Given the area needed for this generator, I'm not sure it would represent an improvement over current PV cell technology and almost assuredly the system cost will not be anywhere close to $1/W. But nevertheless, please post the article when it comes online. It should be an interesting read.
To: Publius6961
Publius6961 suggests: "
Give it up. The combination of almost total ignorance of science, and a blind devotion to wishfull thinking in the form of a dogmatic religion, makes these folks immune to any logic or to any influence by facts."
You can reach a few. That makes it worth the time and trouble.
--Boot Hill
To: Boot Hill
Even Homepower magazing, one of the biggest PV advocates that exists showed similar numbers. Lately they have been showing how much cheaper it is to simply conserve rather than try and produce power with solar panels. They showed how they could save tons of money in a library by simply going to compact florescent bulbs.
Windpower, on the other hand, is perfectly economical and will produce 2-4 percent of the worlds power in 15 years.
125
posted on
07/15/2003 10:06:43 AM PDT
by
biblewonk
(Spose to be a Chrisssssstian)
To: Boot Hill
There is only one way to meet the expanding energy needs of the planet: Nuclear Power............and even this might not be enough.
126
posted on
07/15/2003 10:09:03 AM PDT
by
DoctorMichael
(>>>>>Left Intentionally Blank<<<<<)
To: MainFrame65; null and void
He's not even getting the 800W that he claims to be getting from that 2m^2 PV array. Not even close. Guarantee you.
--Boot Hill
To: Boot Hill
With solar cells still at $5 per watt, it's still a limited sector of the power industry. What do you think of England's new project to replace the need for 6 new nuke power plants with wind farms? Expensive, no doubt.
128
posted on
07/15/2003 10:13:53 AM PDT
by
RightWhale
(gazing at shadows)
To: DoctorMichael
I believe you are correct about the nuclear option.
--Boot Hill
To: RightWhale
I hadn't heard about that English project for the 6 nuke plants, but since nuke plants are typically in excess of 1000 MW in size, the question that comes to mind most readily is how are the English planning to get 6,000 MW of electricity out of wind farms.
--Boot Hill
To: Boot Hill
There is some current news floating around the media, I'll keep my eye out for an article. They are going to build offshore, a massive installation.
131
posted on
07/15/2003 10:33:49 AM PDT
by
RightWhale
(gazing at shadows)
To: Boot Hill
I have a 'Projected Energy Needs' table at home so I can't quote it right now. Its from Zubrin's (the pro-exploration and -colonization of Mars guy) ENTERING SPACE and I can't offhand remember what government agency he got it from.
The numbers he shows can only be met by nuclear power; there is NO WAY these "enviro-friendly" technologies can keep up with 'Need'. Even going full-bore with old-tech stuff like generating power by burning coal, natural gas, damming more rivers etc., etc., etc. that are 'proven' technologies does not keep pace.
The numbers for the 'growth of energy needs' are staggering. Specifically, they only get worse when you start throwing in the industrialization of places like China, India and other highly populated Third World countries. I'll try and remember to post the Table tonight.
132
posted on
07/15/2003 10:48:49 AM PDT
by
DoctorMichael
(>>>>>Left Intentionally Blank<<<<<)
To: upcountryhorseman
No, it's something a utility does. Here in the South, with a Summer, daytime-peaking utility, you pump water from reservoir #1 up the dam to reservoir #2, typically at night using your large base-loaded coal and nuclear plants. This keeps them running full-tilt all the time.
During the peak load afternoon hours, your let the water run through the dam turbines from #2 to #1, making hydropower. Hence "hydro pumped storage".
It's pretty much a large utility option only.
133
posted on
07/15/2003 10:50:25 AM PDT
by
FreedomPoster
(this space intentionally blank)
To: DoctorMichael
An assumption for projected energy needs is that the earth is a single planetary surface, closed system. If, however, heavy manufacturing is thrown up into orbit, a large chunk of the energy requirements go with it. Industrialization needs a huge chunk of power. Put the factories in orbit and let them produce their own power. We can live in pretty good comfort with a much reduced power grid once industry is taken out of the race. This isn't woodstoves, it is technology and a lot of employment for competent engineers.
134
posted on
07/15/2003 11:14:21 AM PDT
by
RightWhale
(gazing at shadows)
To: Boot Hill
Right you are. It's a 7.4 m2 array. This works out to about 10% efficiency at noon.
To: MainFrame65
And how many watts at midnight, with a new moon, in mid-winter? In other words, what is the average output over a full year, which would tend to average out daily, seasonal, and weather variation?It's usually clear weather in San Jose. That being said, the best answer I can give is "enough". Enough to defray 90 to 95% of my energy bills. Call it an average of about 1/3 the peak 800 W. About 2 MW-hr/year.
At that rate the system will pay for itself in a mere 25-30 years, assuming constant energy rates.
I have a small array because the state of California forbids selling electricity to PG&E, but only allows credit towards usage. Our ever clever Governer Grayout now wants to TAX solar energy...
136
posted on
07/15/2003 12:57:46 PM PDT
by
null and void
(At least I don't have to maintain blades and bearings...)
To: null and void
When you say 800 watts, are you referring to the manufacturer's installed, peak power rating? Or are you referring to having made an actual power output measurement? If it is the former, what model and manufacturer do you use?
--Boot Hill
To: Boot Hill
The system was installed by a local contractor:
MC Solar Engineering
2362 Walsh Ave.
Santa Clara, CA 95051
(408) 496-6226
www.mcsolar.com
The grid connected inverter, Model GC1000 is made by:
Advanced Energy Systems
P.O. Box 262
Wilton, NH 03086
(603) 654-9322
info@advancedenergy.com
Sorry, I don't know who made the actual arrays. They are single crystal silicon.
To: biblewonk
Okay, whatever.
"Efficiency" can mean a lot of different things depending on the context.
Energy conversion efficiency is one thing. The size of the generator vs. the actual usable output is another.
Efficiency could just as well be in terms of the dollars in verses dollars out.
But hey... I don't know what the word means...
139
posted on
07/15/2003 4:50:09 PM PDT
by
DB
(©)
To: Boot Hill
The inverter the other person said he used in his system has a specified nominal efficiency of better than 90%.
http://www.advancedenergy.com/gc1000.htm Significantly better than the 75% you've been posting.
140
posted on
07/15/2003 5:13:59 PM PDT
by
DB
(©)
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