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Biology textbook hearings prompt science disputes [Texas]
Knight Ridder Newspapers ^ | 08 July 2003 | MATT FRAZIER

Posted on 07/09/2003 12:08:32 PM PDT by PatrickHenry

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To: JesseShurun
i think we got another groupie!

move over patty
2,521 posted on 07/14/2003 7:16:33 PM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: longshadow
"'Tis a guilty mind that runs when no one pursues."

Yup. Immediate screams of "I resent that" from the duo you'd expect.

Out for the night. I'll check out the spray-paint job in the morning. Still looking for a presentation of what kind of proposed alternate garbage science is supposed to go into those Texas textbooks.

2,522 posted on 07/14/2003 7:17:03 PM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: JesseShurun
Uh...reception's good. Why do you ask?
2,523 posted on 07/14/2003 7:17:16 PM PDT by headsonpikes
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To: JesseShurun
"I'll check out the spray-paint job in the morning"

HA!

2,524 posted on 07/14/2003 7:18:10 PM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: JesseShurun
bed head placemarker
2,525 posted on 07/14/2003 7:19:38 PM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: headsonpikes
uh,, aren't you up in Canada or did you come to the US for some freedom perks?
2,526 posted on 07/14/2003 7:19:43 PM PDT by JesseShurun (The Hazzardous Duke)
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To: JesseShurun; ALS
NO SCIENTIFIC DISCUSSING
just
NAME CALLING

You really must be under the misapprehension that the evolutionists are here to discuss science. I have been trying to get them to do so since long before Post# 1868 with no takers from the so called 'scientists' of evolution.

They are here to spam, and destroy any thread in which their views are shown to be false. Since their views have been shown to be false you can be sure that the evolutionists will now try to put any kind of filth, blasphemy, insult or whatever that they can in order to destroy this thread.

Seems to me that if FR really wants to stop abuse then it is the abusers who should get punished instead of being rewarded for their evil deeds by having the threads they do not like pulled.

2,527 posted on 07/14/2003 7:20:03 PM PDT by gore3000 (Intelligent people do not believe in evolution.)
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To: gore3000
EXACTLY!

great post

goes perfect with

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/943130/posts?page=202#202
2,528 posted on 07/14/2003 7:21:52 PM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: gore3000
thanks gore3000, now I'm so

disillusioned!


2,529 posted on 07/14/2003 7:26:19 PM PDT by JesseShurun (The Hazzardous Duke)
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To: JesseShurun
uh,yep, what's it to ya, Gomer?
2,530 posted on 07/14/2003 7:26:30 PM PDT by headsonpikes
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To: headsonpikes; JesseShurun
headsonpyles placemarker
2,531 posted on 07/14/2003 7:28:29 PM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: headsonpikes
nothin', either you left commie Canada for the US but now you'd like it to be more like commie Canada, and if they let you vote, Hillary's your gal , or you still live there and you can't have satellite tv, so which is it?
2,532 posted on 07/14/2003 7:29:21 PM PDT by JesseShurun (The Hazzardous Duke)
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To: JesseShurun; ALS
Uhhh..hyuk hyuk hyuk, y'all might be inbred, but you're cute as a bug!
2,533 posted on 07/14/2003 7:35:50 PM PDT by headsonpikes
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To: JesseShurun
JesseDuke (we're the good guys) placemarker


2,534 posted on 07/14/2003 7:36:20 PM PDT by JesseShurun (The Hazzardous Duke)
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To: headsonpikes; JesseShurun
shoobread placemarker
2,535 posted on 07/14/2003 7:37:24 PM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: gore3000
Nope, no science discussion here (coincidentally the last discussion that GSHS participated in this thread):

#1311

#1319

#2134

Never Say Never. Just not with you, anymore.

2,536 posted on 07/14/2003 7:51:57 PM PDT by ThinkPlease (Fortune Favors the Bold!)
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To: ALS
You quote (in a graphic posted here and hosted on your site) a sentence from a Darwin letter, citing Life and Letters (1887):
"Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself whether I may not have devoted my life to a phantasy."

Others might be interested in further information, and indeed you might also, as I suspect you (or whoever created the graphic) cribbed the quote second-hand. There is also a minor error. The quote should commence either "...often" or "[O]ften," since the sentence does not begin there in the original.

The source is a letter of November 23, 1859, from Charles Darwin to Charles Lyell. The context was the imminent publication of Darwin's Origin. Darwin was thanking and congradulating Lyell for reversing himself (to a significant degree at any rate) on the subject of evolution. Lyell had for many years disseminated some of the definitive arguments against the "transformation hypothesis" in it's pre-darwinian forms, and had apparently shown Darwin some revisions he intended in new editions of a couple of his works.

Other evidence indicates that Darwin was indeed very nervous about the publication of his book. This was not because he was in doubt about his theory, but because he disliked public controversy and feared vilification (e.g. his reference "the virulence of bigotry [being] expended on the first offender...").

In context Darwin's "cold shudder" comment does not indicate serious or persistent doubt, and most certainly not present doubt, as we can tell from the beginning of the sentence (missing in your version) and the next sentence. Darwin was basically saying that his ability to persuade knowledgable and skeptical persons like Hooker and Lyell indicated that he could not be wholly wrong. The "cold shudder," if not an entirely rhetorical device, most likely refers to doubts that Darwin experienced during the years he was working on his theory in private, without feedback on his ideas from other experts.

OTOH Darwin certainly was capable of prodigious self-doubt. Indeed his ability to identify, and then carefully think through, the possible objections to his theory can only be described as amazing. Darwin was certainly a partisan of his own theory, as is of course usually the case, but most scientists become sufficiently enamored of their theories that they need the help of skeptical colleagues in identifying the best counter-arguments that need answering. In contrast there was not a single major argument brought forward against Darwin's theory that he had not already recognized and considered before The Origin was published. (Darwin did add a section on "Objections to the Theory" in later additions of his book, but these were only variations of points he had already anticipated.)

Anyhow, following is the full paragraph containing your quote. The full letter can be found in the link below. Your quote is bolded, and additional relevant context is highlighted in red:

Project Gutenberg's Life and Letters of Charles Darwin, Volume 2
http://ibiblio.org/gutenberg/etext00/2llcd10.txt

My dear Lyell,

You seemed to have worked admirably on the species question; there could not have been a better plan than reading up on the opposite side. I rejoice profoundly that you intend admitting the doctrine of modification in your new edition (It appears from Sir Charles Lyell's published letters that he intended to admit the doctrine of evolution in a new edition of the 'Manual,' but this was not published till 1865. He was, however, at work on the 'Antiquity of Man' in 1860, and had already determined to discuss the 'Origin' at the end of the book.); nothing, I am convinced, could be more important for its success. I honour you most sincerely. To have maintained in the position of a master, one side of a question for thirty years, and then deliberately give it up, is a fact to which I much doubt whether the records of science offer a parallel. For myself, also, I rejoice profoundly; for, thinking of so many cases of men pursuing an illusion for years, often and often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself whether I may not have devoted my life to a phantasy. Now I look at it as morally impossible that investigators of truth, like you and Hooker, can be wholly wrong, and therefore I rest in peace. Thank you for criticisms, which, if there be a second edition, I will attend to. I have been thinking that if I am much execrated as an atheist, etc., whether the admission of the doctrine of natural selection could injure your works; but I hope and think not, for as far as I can remember, the virulence of bigotry is expended on the first offender, and those who adopt his views are only pitied as deluded, by the wise and cheerful bigots.


2,537 posted on 07/14/2003 7:59:32 PM PDT by Stultis
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To: Stultis

2,538 posted on 07/14/2003 8:08:16 PM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: Dataman
Thank you so much for the additional two links! Hugs!!!
2,539 posted on 07/14/2003 8:10:26 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: PatrickHenry
I continue to find it ironic that your id, "Patrick Henry," is taken from a man who was a noted Creationist.

"Gentlemen may cry, peace, peace-but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!" That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of the conscience; and it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other.

"The rising greatness of our country...is greatly tarnished by the general prevalence of deism, which, with me, is but another name for vice and depravity....Amongst other strange things said of me, I hear it is said by the deists that I am one of the number; and, indeed, that some good people think I am no Christian. This thought gives me much more pain than the appellation of Tory; because I think religion of infinitely higher importance than politics; and I find much cause to reproach myself that I have lived so long, and have given no decided and public proofs of my being a Christian. But, indeed, my dear child, this is a character which I prize far above all this world has, or can boast."

The real Patrick Henry would be appalled to have his name associated with you.

2,540 posted on 07/14/2003 8:15:12 PM PDT by razorbak
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