Biology textbook hearings prompt science disputes [Texas]

Knight Ridder Newspapers ^ | 08 July 2003 | MATT FRAZIER

[ALS]

John 1
1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:2
The same was in the beginning with God.
1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
1:4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
1:5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
1:6
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
1:7
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
1:8
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

---

Col. 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
1:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
1:19
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

---

God begs to differ.

[CobaltBlue]

>>God begs to differ.<<

ALS begs to differ. Not at all the same thing.

[ALS]

Those are direct, unedited, quotes right out of the bible.

How do you interpert them?

[bondserv]

God the Father created the universe. Deal with it.

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

[CobaltBlue]

God the Father is the Creator. Jesus Christ is the Son of God but also the son of Mary. He is both fully human and fully divine.

You don't seem to interested in the Holy Ghost/Spirit, which isn't surprising since you appear to be a Unitarian, not at all a Trinitarian.

[bondserv]

The reason we point this out is not to rub it in anyones face, it is to give rightful Glory to Jesus Christ that the Father gives Him.

[CobaltBlue]

Christ did not create the universe.

If Christ created the Universe, then the Old Testament would say so. No?

[ALS]

You can label me anyway you wish. It has as much validity as your denial of the scriptures.


When do you propose Christ came into existence?

[CobaltBlue]

Christ, the Son of God and the Son of Man, is not the Creator.

He is the Redeemer.

Man does not create. Man is created.

God does not die. God did not die on the cross.

[ALS]

So you think Jesus Christ was just a man born 2000 years ago that died?

That's it?

[CobaltBlue]

I expect that Christ always was.

[CobaltBlue]

>>So you think Jesus Christ was just a man born 2000 years ago that died?<<

No, I don't believe that, and you know that I don't. Christ will not be mocked.

Not even by ALS for ALS's own purposes.

[ALS]

"If Christ created the Universe, then the Old Testament would say so. No?"

who is this?
Acts 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
1:12
Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.


and who is this?
Zech. 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

[ALS]

Stop mocking Him long enough to explain yourself. And while you are at it, give us the verses that support your claim, like we have for you.

[ALS]

Well, what was He doing before he was born? And in light of the fact you agree He existed beforehand, how do you explain the verses provided in John and Col.?

By your method of reasoning, God the Father was the Son.

[CobaltBlue]

>>Stop mocking Him long enough to explain yourself. <<

You can fool men, ALS, but you can't fool God.

There's no place to run and no place to hide.

[ALS]

Looks like YOU are doing the hiding. You haven't provided one single verse supporting anything you've said. NOT ONE.

that's rather curious.

[Alamo-Girl]

For the discussion, from the Catholic Encyclopedia - Nicene Creed (emphasis mine)

The following is a literal translation of the Greek text of the Constantinopolitan form, the brackets indicating the words altered or added in the Western liturgical form in present use:

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

If I parse this closely, it reads like it agrees all things were made by Christ. Is the comma the problem, or is it the "brightness of His glory" issue (Hebrews 1:1-3)?

[ALS]

The comma appears to be the kicker.

The online catholic bible has no variation significant from the KJV that nullifies John 1:1 etc and Col. 1:16 etc.

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/index.htm

[bondserv]

Here is a passage revealing the consultations amongst the Trinity.

Gen 1:26
26 And God said, Let us make man in ourimage, after our likeness:

The Son is eternal as well as the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Any Old Testament apearances of God to man would be the pre-incarnate Son. The Glory Moses was exposed to was similar to the Glory Christ revealed on the Mount of Transfiguration.

This is a passage Jesus spoke during His earthly ministry. His earthly title is "Son of man". He is divine and has the power to create all that there is to create.

John 3:13
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.