Biology textbook hearings prompt science disputes [Texas]

Knight Ridder Newspapers ^ | 08 July 2003 | MATT FRAZIER

[Stultis]

I believe that you are correct, they have no REAL political influence, but they will be used as an example by the opposition to be used against us.

You have a point. I argue with LOTS of liberals. (I live in a college town.) I'm constantly amazed at how many are utterly paranoid (and hateful) about "right wing religous zealots". This perception indeed works against us because many moderates and independents buy into this mantra from the left, at least partially. But that's no reason for other conservatives to echo it!

This is the point I'm trying to make. The paranoia, even if qualified, that you and a couple others are expressing tends to reinforce the myths that all conservatives are religious nuts, or that all conservative Christians are intolerant. I prefer debunking these myths to echoing them. I get right in the face of libs who rant about "the religious right" and confront them with their manifest bigotry and intollerance.

[Stultis]

TROLL (currently tractionless)

[ThinkPlease]

"Selective quoting with intent to mislead" equals Virtual Ignore.

Yo Ho Ho and a bottle of rum placemarker.

[CobaltBlue]

If these differences are so petty, then ask the fundamentalists whether they want their children being taught Catholic theology.

[ALS]

To: CobaltBlue

Social conservatism is their only agenda. They don't believe in limited government. They want a theocracy.

That is the frightening part about it.

I see these guys say how they are conservative, but they want government to tell us what to believe and how to live, evolution is NOT science to them because if it was, then their whole house of cards as far as creationism and ID would come tumbling down.

They don't want limited government, they just want a different kind of BIG government, one that would snoop into everyones bedroom, everyones minds etc, indeed, a theocracy.

I am a constitutionalist, NOT a conservative, and NOT a liberal, I believe the constitution says what it says, nothing less, and nothing more, but to watch these guys in action is downright frightening to contemplate.

A theocracy, ugh, that is just SCARY!! but if they had the opportunity, the constitution be damned, they know what's good for you, and you will obey!!


1,576 posted on 07/12/2003 1:14 PM CDT by Aric2000 (If the history of science shows us anything, it is that we get nowhere by labeling our ignorance god)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/943130/posts?page=1576#1576

[Stultis]

Was your statement bogus?

Maybe it's me, but your message is too incoherent to reply to. Feel free to try again.

[ALS]

more fundamentalist bashing

how lovely

[Aric2000]

Pardon me, but the founding fathers also gave us freedom of religion. And to believe as we chose.

They knew what religious persecution was all about, and they would have nothing to do with anything that smelled of government intervention in someones personal beliefs.

I disagree with you on the fact that ALL of them were fundamentalists though, because some of them were not.

And for a christian nation? I don't think so, try for a MORAL a d religious nation, and ALL religions teach morality. Christianity is but one of those.

As I said, I couldn't care less what religion you are, as long as you respect my right to believe as I do.

I will respect yours, if you will respect mine, our morals are the same, it is how we get those morals that is different.

And this thread is about the teaching of ID as science, when it is NOT, teach it in philosophy class, MORE power to ya, teach it in a christian studies class, MORE power to you, but NOT in a science class.

Words mean things, and science should be taught as science, and if you confuse science with faith, then science is not worth the theories it is made of.

Evolution is science, no amount of lying or obfiscation is going to change that, ID is NOT science, but if it is ever shown to be scientific in any way matter shape or form, then I might open my mind to it, but it is NOT even close at this point.

Mass marketing and publicity does NOT a theory make, being peer reviewed, published in scientific journals, making predicitons etc, make a scientific theory, and ID has not done ANY of these things.

Until then, teach it in philosophy or religious classes, I have NO problem with that at ALL.

[ALS]

TROLL (currently tractionless)

IF this where true you evos wouldn't be restating it endlessly...

[bondserv]

Loose lips sink ships.

In the News/Activism forum, on a thread titled Biology textbook hearings prompt science disputes [Texas], ALS wrote:

Largest denominational families in U.S., 2001

(self-identification, ARIS)

Denomination	1990 Est. Adult Pop.	2001 Est. Adult Pop.	Est. % of U.S. Pop., 2001	% Change 1990 - 2001
Catholic	46,004,000	50,873,000	24.5%	+11%
Baptist	33,964,000	33,830,000	16.3%	0%
Methodist/Wesleyan	14,174,000	14,150,000	6.8%	0%
Lutheran	9,110,000	9,580,000	4.6%	+5%
Presbyterian	4,985,000	5,596,000	2.7%	+12%
Pentecostal/Charismatic	3,191,000	4,407,000	2.1%	+38%
Episcopalian/Anglican	3,042,000	3,451,000	1.7%	+13%
Judaism	3,137,000	2,831,000	1.3%	-10%
Latter-day Saints/Mormon	2,487,000	2,697,000	1.3%	+8%
Churches of Christ	1,769,000	2,593,000	1.2%	+47%
Congregational/ United Church of Christ	599,000	1,378,000	0.7%	+130%
Jehovah's Witnesses	1,381,000	1,331,000	0.6%	-4%
Assemblies of God	660,000	1,106,000	0.5%	+68%

Add 827 Calvary Chapel Pastors nation wide. With a conservative estimate of 50 persons per pastor you would have

41,350.

NAVIGATION OPTIONS:  CALVARY HOMEPAGE  FELLOWSHIP CHURCHES

United States Clickable Map

International Clickable Map

State List

City List

ZIP Code List

Pastor List

[ALS]

evos back to claiming darwin is science *ping*

see post 1,748

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for all your kind words and for voicing your concerns!

I have a similar problem with atheists on this forum. I tend to classify atheists in three groups. The first group doesn’t believe but doesn’t mind if you do. The second wants to convince you and will argue in a respectful manner. The third group really hates God, they aren’t trying to persuade anyone. I decline to engage or encourage the third type.

Seems to me that passion can lead to trouble, because words spoken in the heat of a debate, can be harsh. This is particularly difficult for Christians, because we are committed to the Great Commandment:

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.

And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. – Matthew 22:37-39

Sometimes loving God with all of our being requires us to be painfully blunt with our neighbor, but in the same way we would want our neighbor to be painfully blunt with us - i.e. ‘tough love.’

But as Christians we step over the line when we do out of meanness or vindictiveness.

[ALS]

ahh cool!

[gore3000]

Once an intelligent designer has invented something, it is easy to replicate the design with slight changes in anything totally unrelated.-me-

So why does your designer sometimes use a whole limb (birds) to invent flight, sometimes just the hand (bats), and sometimes just a finger (pterodactyl)? It's not a replication at all.

I am afraid you will have to ask Him that question when you meet Him.

However, as to design in general, once you understand the purpose of something and how it works it is easy for an intelligent designer adapt it to other situations. The same cannot be said of a stochastic process such as evolution. When one considers all the bird-like changes which were necessary to turn a mammal (the bat) into a bird-like creature, one understands why it disproves evolution. It required numerous changes to the physiology and genetics of a mammal. It involved the copying of features from a totally unrelated species. It involved the adaptation of the rest of the organism to features not normally found in the supposed ancestor species.

Therefore when evolutionists speak of convergent evolution they are talking nonsense. Since there was no ancestral trace for these traits they cannot be called evolution since there was nothing for them to evolve from. Since species cannot 'borrow' traits from widely unrelated species to call it 'evolution' is very dishonest. To say that bats developed flight because they 'needed to' when no other mammals had such a need to transform themselves to such an extent is also very ludicrous. Indeed the whole idea that 'need' cretes change in species is ridiculous. It is a deceitful borrowing of the maxim that 'necessity is the mother of invention'. The maxim applies to intelligent designers, it does not apply to anything else.

[<1/1,000,000th%]

If these differences are so petty, then ask the fundamentalists whether they want their children being taught Catholic theology.

LOL! I guess I should've led off with IMO. I just can't find the chapter and verse in my Bible that says, "Strive to create as many Christian Churches as possible until they become too small to make any difference to anyone."

I was raised Protestant and still am, but I love participating in Catholic services. Blame the Jesuits. ;)

[Aric2000]

Let's have some fun with your last post Bondserv, You are going to be pleasantly surprised. My comments will be in (my Comments) I hate dealing with HTML at this time of night.


Our concern is that libertarians will marginalize the moral core of our communities, states and nation. If we open the AMORAL door to become a more powerful influence in our party, we will cease being the:

Pro-family (I agree)
Pro-academic integrity (The greatest Universities in our nation were founded as Christian ministerial training facilities)(then what's with this ID thing in science class? Teach it in philosophy or religious studies, but it has yet to be even CLOSE to a scientific theory, when it does, I will be the first to welcome it, but until then, keep it out of the science classroom, Other then that, we agree.)

Pro-life(we agree here as well, but let's be specific, I want Roe Vs Wade overturned, because this is a state issue, the consitution gives NO power to the federal government over that issue, If a state wants abortion, I may not like it, but it is up to the individual states)

Pro-marriage between one man and one woman (100% agree)

Pro-capital punishment (100% agree)

Pro-corporal punishment (we love our children and believe corporal punishment should be administered only with good intentions for the child, by the parents) ( this I have a problem with, but I believe that it should be the parents decision, NOT anyone elses, I do NOT and have NEVER hit my children, but that is MY choice as a parent.)

Pro-individual accountability (100% agree, this is why I hate social programs, besides the fact they are unconstitutional)

Pro-national and state sovereignty (110% agree)

Anti-drugs (Not sure about this one, I am more darwinistic on this one, if someone is idiotic enough to do drugs, let them, just as long as they do it in their own home and do NOT effect others with their habit, once they leave their house and come out with it publicly, and try to do it in public as if it were OK, then that's it that's all, they are done.)

Anti-divorce(50% agree, would really agree if more people had some sort of counseling before getting married, not religious necassarily, but some sort of counseling to see if they are indeed compatible, otherwise, if you want a divorce, make it as hard and expensive as possible for BOTH parties)

Anti-adultery(100% agree)

Anti-child abuse (In all of its perverted liberal iterations) (100% agree)

Anti-lawyer (1 in 1000 operate with moral integrity, maybe fewer, this is a major blight on our nation, we need a complete overhaul of the judicial system putting it back to its original guidelines)(I actually agree with you, but I think 1 in 1000 is a little much, 1 in a 100 is more where I stand.

Hopefully you are on the same page, for these are common sense ideas pertaining to rightousness, and good for our nation. Notice there is no "force my religion on you" on the list.


OK, indeed, there is NO force your religion on me, and for that I am appreciative, but you can be a bit over the top sometimes, but on almost all of those points we agree.

But then again, you and I are pretty civil to each other most of the time!! ;)

[CobaltBlue]

Oh, right, I should have said that Catholics outnumber any Protestant denomination, not all Protestants lumped together.

Not that I think it would be meaningful to lump all Protestants together.

After all, how many Protestant denominations are there? 20,000? If ya'll could all get along, you would have already done that, seems to me.

My husband's Missouri Synod Lutheran, which can't even get along with the ELCA Lutherans and the Wisconsin Synod Lutherans, much less Presbyterians, Methodists, Episcopalians, Baptists, etc., etc., etc.

Not to mention the Church of Billy Bob and his 34 brethren.

Seems to me we're all happier going our separate ways, worshiping as we choose. It's the American way. You worship as you choose and I'll worship as I choose.

If you want to see misery on earth, look at the countries where the different religions are fighting over who gets to tell the other ones how to worship.

[Stultis]

I tend to classify atheists in three groups. The first group doesn’t believe but doesn’t mind if you do. The second wants to convince you and will argue in a respectful manner. The third group really hates God, they aren’t trying to persuade anyone. I decline to engage or encourage the third type.

The following quote is frequently featured in my email sig:

He was an embittered atheist - the sort of atheist who does not so much disbelieve in God as personally dislike Him.
~~~George Orwell

Some other favs, just for fun:

In a reversal peculiar to our age, it is innocence, not guilt, that is called upon to justify itself.
~~~Albert Camus

Mistakes committed by ignorance in a virtuous disposition, would never be of such fatal consequence to the publick weal, as the practices of a man whose inclinations led him to be corrupt, and had great abilities to manage, and multiply, and defend his corruptions.
~~~Jonathan Swift (prophecy of Bubba)

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.
~~~Jonathan Swift (prophecy of Dubya)

I've gone to hundreds of fortune-tellers' parlors, and have been told thousands of things, but nobody ever told me I was a policewoman getting ready to arrest her.
~~~New York City Detective

[Stultis]

Blame the Jesuits.

They's sneakey alright.

[bondserv]

I attend a Calvary Chapel in southern California. We just teach through the Bible from cover to cover then back again.

This gives the Holy Spirit ample material to reveal to each individual his or her personal growth plan. There is nothing like the whole counsel of God.

It is amazing how God uses various members of the body in different ways. Just take a look at the variety of believers in this thread alone. The Holy Spirit is reasoning with these folks from every angle.

It truly is miraculous to behold!!